[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":53247},["ShallowReactive",2],{"\u002Fpodcast\u002Fdeep-dive-215-informatik-studium-und-ki-mit-prof-dr-olaf-herden-von-der-dhbw":3},{"podcast":4,"pickOfTheDayCount":150,"speakerCount":151,"relatedPodcasts":152,"transcript":153},{"id":5,"published_on":6,"type":7,"number":8,"title":9,"slug":10,"description":11,"transcript":12,"audio_url":13,"apple_url":12,"google_url":12,"spotify_url":12,"youtube_url":14,"cover_image":15,"banner_image":27,"speakers":37,"members":79,"picks_of_the_day":114,"tags":146,"tagsPrepared":147,"speakersPrepared":148},"a84b0d34-1c35-41b1-8083-f21c3e7014a3","2026-09-01T04:00:00.000Z","deep_dive","215","Informatik-Studium und KI mit Prof. Dr. Olaf Herden von der DHBW","deep-dive-215-informatik-studium-und-ki-mit-prof-dr-olaf-herden-von-der-dhbw","\u003Cp>Wie muss sich ein Informatikstudium heute verändern, damit es Studierende auf eine Zukunft mit AI vorbereitet? Genau darüber sprechen Jan und Dave mit \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.dhbw-stuttgart.de\u002Fhorb\u002Fstudium\u002Fbachelor-studienangebot\u002Finformatik\u002Fansprechpersonen\u002Fprof-dr-ing-olaf-herden\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Prof. Dr.-Ing. Olaf Herden, Studiengangsleiter für Angewandte Informatik\u003C\u002Fa> an der \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.dhbw-stuttgart.de\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Dualen Hochschule Baden-Württemberg Stuttgart\u003C\u002Fa>, Campus Horb.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp>Für Olaf ist klar: Die Informatik schafft sich durch AI nicht selbst ab, aber das Studium muss sich anpassen. Klassische Prüfungsmethoden passen nicht mehr zur Geschwindigkeit, mit der sich AI-Tools entwickeln, deshalb braucht es kleinere, häufigere Zwischenschritte. Neben der Lösung tritt der Weg dahin mehr in den Vordergrund. Inhaltlich bleibt trotzdem eine Konstante: Den Überblick über ein System zu behalten und einzuschätzen, wo AI-Einsatz sinnvoll ist, bleibt Aufgabe von Menschen und genau das muss das Studium vermitteln.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp>Ein zweiter Punkt ist das Verhältnis von Domänenwissen und technischer Tiefe. Früher belächelte „Bindestrich-Informatiker:innen“ mit Schwerpunkt Wirtschaft oder Medizin gewinnen an Bedeutung, ohne dass technisches Verständnis für Algorithmen und Daten überflüssig wird. Zu erkennen, dass Daten in einem Datensatz sehr ungleich verteilt sind, funktioniert unabhängig von der Domäne. Auch der Blick auf den Arbeitsmarkt lohnt sich: Wer jetzt ein Studium beginnt, steht der Wirtschaft erst Mitte der 2030er-Jahre zur Verfügung, Studieninhalte von heute müssen also auf eine AI-Landschaft vorbereiten, die es noch gar nicht gibt.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp>Wie konkret diese Debatte wird, zeigt das Beispiel Quicksort: Im Berufsalltag bei Lotum hat den niemals jemand von Hand implementiert, trotzdem sind sich alle einig, dass ein tiefes Verständnis von Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen nicht überflüssig wird, nur weil AI den Code dafür schreibt. Die Parallele zum Web Development liegt nahe: Frameworks nehmen uns längst eine Abstraktionsebene ab, etwa bei der Reaktivität. Übernimmt AI die nächste Ebene, könnte ein zukunftsfähiges Studium Entwickler:innen gezielt auf die Rolle als Architekt:innen vorbereiten, die das große Ganze orchestrieren.\u003C\u002Fp>",null,"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F176239\u002Fepisodes\u002F19710243-deep-dive-215-informatik-studium-und-ki-mit-prof-dr-olaf-herden-von-der-dhbw.mp3","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=3yIGhf_QEYA",{"id":16,"title":17,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":18,"filename_download":19,"metadata":20,"type":21,"filesize":22,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":23,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":24,"uploaded_on":25,"folder":12,"width":26,"height":26,"charset":12,"duration":12},"afa0df2a-b105-4e8a-a220-79ebeacbfe59","215 Ig Fb Olaf Herden 1","afa0df2a-b105-4e8a-a220-79ebeacbfe59.png","215_ig_fb_Olaf_Herden-1.png",{},"image\u002Fpng","1504244","2026-08-24T07:39:56.404Z","11a655b6-bcfc-4c6c-a13c-68189e38edb9","2026-08-24T07:39:56.402Z",1500,{"id":28,"title":29,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":30,"filename_download":31,"metadata":32,"type":21,"filesize":33,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":34,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":24,"uploaded_on":35,"folder":12,"width":36,"height":36,"charset":12,"duration":12},"240e8119-1465-4750-8841-b601d8c80dc0","Herden Olaf DB Vl Ki Generiert 1 Square","240e8119-1465-4750-8841-b601d8c80dc0.png","Herden_Olaf_DB_VL_KI_Generiert_1_square.png",{},"282573","2026-08-24T07:39:48.219Z","2026-08-24T07:39:48.216Z",501,[38],{"speaker":39},{"id":40,"slug":41,"academic_title":42,"occupation":43,"first_name":44,"last_name":45,"description":46,"event_image":47,"profile_image":59},"1b64ed5b-8d6d-46da-a844-ae4132a19e7c","prof-dr-olaf-herden","Prof. Dr.","Professor für Informatik\u002FStudiengangsleitung an der DHBW (Duale Hochschule Baden-Württemberg)","Olaf","Herden","\u003Cp>Olaf Herden ist seit Oktober 2002 Professor für Informatik am Campus Horb der DHBW und leitet dort seit 2006 den Studiengang Informatik: Er gestaltet ihn inhaltlich und organisatorisch, kümmert sich um die Qualitätssicherung der Lehre, stimmt sich mit den dualen Partnerunternehmen ab und berät die Studierenden. In der Lehre geht es bei ihm um Datenbanksysteme, Maschinelles Lernen, Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen sowie Programmierung, in der Forschung um moderne Datenbanksysteme und Informatikbildung.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp>Zu Datenbanken kam Olaf schon früh: Nach dem Diplom in Oldenburg 1996 arbeitete er als wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter am OFFIS – Institut für Informatik und promovierte 2001 an der Universität Oldenburg über eine Entwurfsmethodik für Data Warehouses. Auch in der Community ist er unterwegs, als Mitglied der DOAG, der JUGS, der GI und der ACM.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":48,"title":49,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":50,"filename_download":51,"metadata":52,"type":21,"filesize":53,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":54,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":55,"uploaded_on":56,"folder":12,"width":57,"height":58,"charset":12,"duration":12},"140b4d6f-8d4e-47bb-be62-f12ae5a7f427","Herden Olaf DB Vl Ki Generiert 1","140b4d6f-8d4e-47bb-be62-f12ae5a7f427.png","Herden_Olaf_DB_VL_KI_Generiert_1.png",{},"2115761","2026-08-21T09:25:37.460Z","ef1f3dcc-dd4b-4911-958e-6e6f729a2f08","2026-08-21T09:25:37.457Z",1448,1086,{"id":60,"title":61,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":62,"filename_download":63,"metadata":64,"type":73,"filesize":74,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":75,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":55,"uploaded_on":76,"folder":12,"width":77,"height":78,"charset":12,"duration":12},"bfca1253-960d-4322-90f4-c1312191799e","Herden Olaf","bfca1253-960d-4322-90f4-c1312191799e.jpg","Herden_Olaf.jpg",{"ifd0":65,"exif":68},{"Make":66,"Model":67},"samsung","SM-A528B",{"FNumber":69,"ExposureTime":70,"FocalLength":71,"ISOSpeedRatings":72},2.2,0.04,3.72,800,"image\u002Fjpeg","629939","2026-08-21T09:25:37.001Z","2026-08-21T09:25:36.998Z",1420,2207,[80,98],{"member":81},{"id":82,"first_name":83,"last_name":84,"occupation":85,"description":86,"normal_image":87},"11d2e9b0-4443-4287-96bc-3930b0ada739","Dave","Koschitzki","\u002F\u002F Website \u002F\u002F Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Dave ist seit 2024 Mitglied des programmier.bar-Teams. Neben seiner Arbeit an der Website-Entwicklung bringt er frischen Wind in den Podcast und ist regelmäßig bei Meetups anzutreffen. Seine Leidenschaft für Games, die er sowohl auf der Konsole als auch am PC spielt, ist unübersehbar.\u003Cbr> \u003Cbr>Wenn er nicht gerade in virtuelle Welten eintaucht, trifft man ihn im Fitnessstudio, wo er mit Begeisterung Gewichte stemmt. Dave bereichert das Team nicht nur durch seine technischen Fähigkeiten, sondern auch durch seine vielseitigen Interessen und ansteckende Energie.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":88,"title":89,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":90,"filename_download":91,"metadata":92,"type":73,"filesize":93,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":94,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":95,"uploaded_on":96,"folder":12,"width":97,"height":97,"charset":12,"duration":12},"578c2a0f-e919-4668-9cb4-f5b97252d57f","Dave CD","578c2a0f-e919-4668-9cb4-f5b97252d57f.jpg","Dave_CD.jpg",{},"675668","2024-07-29T14:46:16.725Z","e97179d2-51b3-4deb-828f-9524091441f5","2024-07-29T14:46:16.613Z",1024,{"member":99},{"id":100,"first_name":101,"last_name":102,"occupation":103,"description":104,"normal_image":105},"47099351-508c-44d9-a2a2-855181c72ee8","Jan Gregor","Emge-Triebel","\u002F\u002F programmier.bar Tech Community Lead \u002F\u002F Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Jan ist ein echter Technik-Fan mit einer facettenreichen Karriere, die sich über Web-, Mobile-App-Entwicklung und DevOps erstreckt. Dank seiner vielfältigen Rollen – vom Entwickler über den Teamleiter bis hin zum Vice President Development – verfügt Jan über einen großen Erfahrungsschatz in der Softwareentwicklung und Developer Advocacy.\u003Cbr>Seine Leidenschaften jenseits der Technik reichen von Tauchgängen an exotischen Orten über das Eintauchen in digitale wie analoge Spiele bis hin zum Abtauchen in gelungene Plot-Twists in Büchern und Filmen.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":106,"title":107,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":108,"filename_download":109,"metadata":110,"type":73,"filesize":111,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":112,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":95,"uploaded_on":113,"folder":12,"width":97,"height":97,"charset":12,"duration":12},"ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b","Jan CD","ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b.jpg","Jan_CD.jpg",{},"649400","2024-07-26T09:26:17.846Z","2024-07-26T09:26:17.710Z",[115,131],{"id":116,"name":117,"website_url":118,"description":119,"image":120},"e705514b-8b8a-412c-9ded-51b954304efc","Codex","https:\u002F\u002Fopenai.com\u002Fcodex\u002F","\u003Cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\" dir=\"ltr\">Codex ist der Coding Agent von OpenAI. Ihr könnt ihn in ChatGPT, per CLI im Terminal, als Desktop-App für macOS und Windows oder direkt in eurer IDE nutzen, alles gekoppelt an euer ChatGPT-Konto.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\" dir=\"ltr\">Für Dave passt der Pick zur Podcastfolge: Es ging nicht nur um Lehre, sondern auch um AI, und Codex zeigt ganz praktisch, wie weit AI beim Programmieren schon mit anpackt.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":121,"title":122,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":123,"filename_download":124,"metadata":125,"type":21,"filesize":126,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":127,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":128,"uploaded_on":129,"folder":12,"width":130,"height":77,"charset":12,"duration":12},"680b709f-78c5-4254-b3f7-e403adc74e32","Bildschirmfoto 2026 08 06 Um 15.26.20","680b709f-78c5-4254-b3f7-e403adc74e32.png","Bildschirmfoto 2026-08-06 um 15.26.20.png",{},"182881","2026-08-06T13:26:35.600Z","7d52cb41-56d8-499c-b7a2-46c2e0d8f405","2026-08-06T13:26:35.598Z",2220,{"id":132,"name":133,"website_url":134,"description":135,"image":136},"c2398a56-5342-4e18-b5e8-9b93f82baebe","Jurassic Park computers in excruciating detail","https:\u002F\u002Ffabiensanglard.net\u002Fjurrasic_park_computers\u002Findex.html","\u003Cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\" dir=\"ltr\">Fabien Sanglard hat sich den Filmklassiker Jurassic Park noch einmal angeschaut und dabei jedes Stück Hardware identifiziert, das im Film zu sehen ist: vom Apple PowerBook 100 im Wohnwagen von Alan Grant und Ellie Sattler bis zu den SGI-Workstations, den Macintosh Quadra 700 und den Thinking Machines CM-5 im Kontrollraum.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\" dir=\"ltr\">Besonders spannend: Sanglard trägt nicht nur Hardware-Daten und Preise von damals zusammen, sondern hat auch Leute aufgetrieben, die dabei waren. Sie berichten etwa, dass die Bildschirme am Set aus einem Nebenraum bespielt wurden und dass hinter der legendären „Das ist ein Unix-System, ich kenne mich aus“-Szene der experimentelle SGI-Dateimanager fsn steckt.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":137,"title":12,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":138,"filename_download":139,"metadata":140,"type":73,"filesize":141,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":142,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":24,"uploaded_on":143,"folder":12,"width":144,"height":145,"charset":12,"duration":12},"eb5f29bd-3caa-426b-80b1-208737d1767f","eb5f29bd-3caa-426b-80b1-208737d1767f.jpg","fabiensanglard-net-jurrasicparkcomputers-index-html.jpg",{},"105326","2026-07-31T07:31:53.743Z","2026-07-31T07:31:53.740Z",1366,768,[],[],[149],{"first_name":44,"last_name":45,"profile_image":59,"slug":41,"description":46,"event_image":47,"academic_title":42},487,207,[],{"id":154,"service":155,"supported_features":156,"speakers":159,"raw_response":167},"8244175e-8c78-472a-b6a7-8b5b21743a24","deepgram",[157,158],"timestamps","diarization",[160,163,165],{"identifier":161,"name":162},"0","Jan",{"identifier":164,"name":83},"1",{"identifier":166,"name":44},"2",{"metadata":168,"results":185},{"transaction_key":169,"request_id":170,"sha256":171,"created":172,"duration":173,"channels":174,"models":175,"model_info":177,"diarize_info":182},"deprecated","01a04264-d8a7-7bd2-b0c0-8c94c642fec8","37aabe94a22ffe48353692a77c51a39c8ac9cd0d33b15798dca54aa2885b6c50","2026-08-27T08:45:07.014Z",4611.612,1,[176],"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3",{"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3":178},{"name":179,"version":180,"arch":181},"2-general-nova","2024-05-09.3071","nova-2",{"model_uuid":183,"arch":184},"a9f85c2b-5afb-4b9d-b49b-492c43a01cfb","v1",{"channels":186,"utterances":36297},[187],{"alternatives":188},[189],{"transcript":190,"confidence":191,"words":192,"paragraphs":33963},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem neuen Deep Dive hier in der Programmierbar für euch aus dem Studio in Badnauheim, hier am Start der Janen Gregor im Getriebe und mit mir im Studio. Der Dave aka David Krusitzky. Moin, was geht? Schön, dass Du da bist, Dave. Wir haben heute ein Thema, mit dem ich quasi gar nicht so viel am Hut hab, denn wir wollen heute über das Informatikstudium sprechen und wir vielleicht längere Hörerinnen schon wissen, ich hab kein Informatikstudium in der Tasche. Das ist schon krass. Also ne, man muss überlegen, was das mit unserer Kredibilität macht, dass Du als quasi fast Haupthost kein Informatik Background hast. Mein Lebensmotto ist. Ja, aber es zeigt ja auch, wie weltoffen wir hier sind bei der Programmierwahl. Das ist ja auch vielleicht eigentlich was Schönes. Auch für Quereinsteiger geöffnet in der in der Programmierwahl. Genau. Dave hat immerhin ein Studium hinter sich, sogar anderthalb sozusagen. Ja, 2 sogar, oder? Oder soll man mit anderthalb. Ach so, mein Master nur eine Hälfte zählt? Nein, Du hast hast Du nicht vorher was anderes? Ah ja, ja, ja, okay, darüber reden wir nicht. Ja. Was kommt denn in 'nem Special mal vor? Ja, ja, stimmt. Okay. Ja. Dave verliert. Aber weil das bei uns allen auch schon son bisschen länger her ist, haben wir uns noch einen Gast eingeladen. Wir haben nämlich heute auch dabei, den Professor Olaf Verden. Hallo Olaf, schön, dass Du da bist. Ja, hallo, vielen Dank für die Einladung. Wir wollten nämlich mit jemandem über das Informatikstudium sprechen, der tatsächlich jeden Tag damit zu tun hat und nicht, wie Dave und ich das letzte Mal eine Uni von innen gesehen hat vor 15 Jahren oder so. 15? Bei mir, oh nee, 2021 war's, glaub ich. Meine letzte Vorlesung war 2021 tatsächlich und dann für die Abschlussarbeit bin ich aber noch mal hingegangen, 2022, also Bist halt 'n bisschen jünger als Ja, 'n bisschen jünger. 15 Jahre ist es aber nicht bei dir her, oder? Na ja, doch. Schade. Ich hinterfrag halt, wie alt Du bist. Sorry, okay, tut gar nichts Thema. Olaf, wir haben dich eingeladen, weil wir uns kennengelernt haben auf der Deflan Konferenz, wo Du einen Vortrag gehalten hast. Wenn Du nicht über die Kongresse dieser Welt hingelst, bist Du eigentlich an der DHBW Professor und Lehrster und bist sogar Studiengangsleitung. Hast Du mir gar nicht erzählt, hab ich da auf deine Internetseite gesehen? Ja, das bin ich in der Tat. Seit 2002 bin ich an der DHBW am Campus Hopp tätig und seit 2006 2007 auch Studiengangsleiter für, ja, zunächst hieß es angewandte Informatik und inzwischen heißt der Studiengang dann nur noch Informatik. Damit bist Du der perfekte Kandidat, heute über das Thema zu sprechen. Wir wollen nämlich darüber sprechen, wie sich der Studiengang gewandelt hat beziehungsweise gerade dabei ist zu wandeln und welchen Einfluss künstlicher Intelligenz darauf hat und darüber wollen wir einmal sprechen. Kurz noch mal kurz noch mal vielleicht zur Aufgabe zum Studigangsleiter. Du gestaltest ja auch aktiv das Curriculum mit und was alles in 'nem Studiengang dran an Themen vorkommt. Ja, das ist so richtig, genau. Okay, dann dann ist es ja perfekt. Wie immer die Gäste bei uns, einfach ein 1 perfekter Witze. Olaf wird's grad 'n bisschen unangenehm. Ich weiß schon, wir legen die Latte immer höher. Also, ich wär das 1. Mal Profi in der Premiere. Ja, wunderbar. Ja, wunderbar. Vielleicht zum Einstieg, ich kann mir vorstellen, dass wir dieses Gespräch so in 3 Teile aufteilen. Ich glaub, der 1. Teil ist son bisschen darüber zu sprechen, mit welcher vielleicht veränderten Erwartungshaltung, Einstellungen im Moment studierende, junge Menschen an die Uni kommen, was sich da geändert hat. Dann vielleicht auch, wie sich der Studiengang selbst geändert hat, wie sich Lehre geändert hat, wie sich Prüfungen geändert haben, wie man veränderten Realitäten einfach gerecht werden kann und am Ende vielleicht noch mit 'nem ganz kleinen Teil son Ausblick darauf geben, grade mit modernen Bachelorstudiengängen will ja Uni auch immer berufsvorbereiten sein und welchen Realitäten man sich denn da jetzt stellen muss, wenn sich das Berufsfeld grade so sehr ändert, wie die Uni darauf eben auch reagieren kann, muss oder eben vielleicht auch nicht, so. Meine 1. Frage vielleicht gleich son bisschen überspitzt formuliert zum Anfang ist, kommt über heute kommt heute überhaupt noch jemand zum Informatikstudium? Ja, in der Tat eine spannende Frage. Es ist im Moment schon ein bisschen schwierig. Die Schülerinnen, Schüler, die grundsätzlich sich dafür interessieren, sind schon auch 'n Stück weit verunsichert. Das ist getrieben durch auch einige Aussagen in der Presse, dass ja, ich sag da auch mal jetzt überspitzt, die Informatik schafft sich selber ab. Wir haben irgendwie eine gewisse Menge Tools und Techniken geschaffen und die verselbstständigt sich jetzt und übernehmen dann zukünftig die Softwareentwicklung. Das, denke ich, ist keineswegs der Fall. Das, was da eben KI generative KI heute kann, ist ja gewissen Code umsetzen, den auf vielleicht einen gewissen Style überprüfen, gewisse Tests durchführen und so weiter, aber den großen Überblick, das Big Picture über die Gesamtarchitektur, über die Systeme, das ist etwas, was schon noch immer personengesteuert sein muss und auch, ich denke, auch dauerhaft sein wird. Also irgendwie son Human Insel Loop Ansatz, der dort entsprechend verfolgt wird. Ebenso muss natürlich abgeschätzt werden können, wo ist der KI Einsatz sinnvoll und wo ist er das auch nicht? Wo wo sind Grenzen? Auch das ist eine wichtige Aufgabe, die auch in Zukunft Informatikerinnen und Informatiker umsetzen müssen. Vielleicht da einmal kurz nachzuhaken. Das ist ja eigentlich vielleicht nur eine Erweiterung von dem, was wir ganz lange in der Pädagogik so Medienkompetenz genannt haben, ne, auch einfach zu wissen, wann kann man soner Maschine 1 anonymen Quelle irgendwie vertrauen, wann muss man selber 'n bisschen hinterfragen, man muss dann selber 'n bisschen Hirn noch anwenden. Wie wie kompetent kommen da Leute im Moment von der Schule zu euch? Ja. Wirkt erst mal nicht über die Ja, die kommen. Na ja, ja, ja. Und sind auch ganz schnell wieder weg. Das ist 'n anderes Thema. Ja, es ist in der Tat so, dass im Bereich Informatik auch immer noch Studienanfänger zu uns kommen und auch zu anderen Hochschulen, Universitäten mit auch falschen Erwartungshaltung oder falschen Vorstellungen. Irgendwie ich kann alles an meinem Handy machen oder ich bin, ja, kann ich hier bei 'ner beim Unternehmen, das Spielesoftware herstellt, kaum sagen, aber jemand, der besonders gut in Computergames ist, das ist noch kein Alleinstellungsmerkmal und Skill, unbedingt Das kannst Du auch hier gerne sagen, zu studieren und so weiter. Und das war jetzt aber alles gar nicht die Frage. Die Frage war die die die die Medienkompetenz, die ja, das das auch kritische Reflektieren und so weiter, was auch 'n ganz zentraler Skill ist. Der ist stark unterschiedlich ausgeprägt, kann man einfach nur sagen bei den Studienanfängerinnen und Anfängern. Wie eigentlich auch in 'nem in der Durchschnitt der Bevölkerung, ne, muss man ja auch sagen. Ja. Genau. Ja, den Gedanken davor noch mal abzuschließen, was müssen Informatikerin, Informatik in der Zukunft auch noch tun? Die ganzen KI Systeme funktionieren ja nicht alle irgendwie. Dass das irgendwo in USA oder China ja konfektioniert wird und dann immer zur Verfügung steht. Das muss ja auch irgendwo ja individuell zum Beispiel nachtrainiert werden oder irgendwie aus einzelnen Komponenten ein KI System zusammengestöpselt werden, was dann auch passgenau ist fürs eigene Team, Unternehmen oder Umfeld. Das wären so die inhaltlichen, fachlichen Gründe, warum sich 'n Informatikstudium immer noch lohnt und es gibt auch noch mal handfeste ökonomische Gründe. Zum einen gibt's immer noch 'n riesen Fachkräftemangel, ja, je nachdem, wer die Studie durchgeführt hat und wie man zählt, aber Und was Fachkraft heißt, Ja. Fachkräftemangel. Genau, genau, ja. Aber Bitkom spricht immer noch von ungefähr 100000 fehlenden Fachkräften in in Deutschland, Wenn dann 'n paar weniger Informatiker, Informatikerin benötigt werden in der Zukunft, kann man vielleicht diese Lücke da auch entsprechend gut schließen. Dann ist es so, dass im Moment im gesamten technischen Umfeld durch die Konjunktur, insbesondere die Probleme in der Automobilbranche als ja der Branche in in Deutschland es gewisse Schwierigkeiten gibt, den Berufseinstieg gut zu meistern. Das wird ja aber auch wieder vergehen. Das wird auch wieder besser werden die Zeiten. Und 'n weiterer letzter Punkt dazu ist noch, wer jetzt sein Studium aufnimmt diesen oder nächsten Herbst, der wird ja dem Arbeitsmarkt dann erst zu Beginn bis Mitte der Dreißigerjahre zur Verfügung stehen und da laufen wir ja in eine riesen Verrentungswelle in Deutschland hinein. Ab 20 29 gehen die starken Boomer Jahrgänge dann langsam in Rente sukzessive und ich denke, gerade im IT Bereich ist das vielleicht noch mal machen dann machen dann dort entsprechende Stellen frei. Mhm. Mhm. Kurze Frage, zu welcher Generation an Informatik gehörst Du? Achtzigerjahre, Neunzigerjahre, Zweitausender? Ich hab 89 angefangen zu studieren. Okay. Mhm. Deine Altersfrage am Anfang zu machen, da bin ich grade geboren worden. 89? Ah, okay, crazy, crazy, okay. Ja, son ist 'n Dreigeneration Treff hier. Ja. Du hast eingangs auch gesagt, dass man schon merkt, dass jetzt weniger Leute kommen grade so, ja. Ist das eher ein generelles Zurücktreten von Informatik als Ganzes oder ist das eher ein, ich weiche vielleicht aus auf so was wie Wirtschaftsinformatik, Medieninformatik, wo ich glaube, dass der menschliche Faktor vielleicht noch 'n bisschen stärker ausgespielt werden kann versus der klassischen reinen Informatik? Ja. Nein, also ich denke, der Trend ist ist da gleich, also zumindest bei uns an der Hochschule, Wirtschaftsinformatik haben wir auch im im Angebot und die Kolleginnen und Kollegen dort haben ähnliche Entwicklungen bei den Anfängerzahlen. Okay, okay. Mich würd mich würd grad noch mal interessieren, weil wir jetzt ja auch gerade so am Anfang gesagt haben, son bisschen die die Sorgen der Studierenden, ne, grade auch so durch die Medien, kennzeichnet, oh, Informatik schafft sich selbst ab und wir benötigen das in der Zukunft nicht mehr so stark. Gibt es aber vielleicht auch die umgekehrte Seite, wo sich Leute jetzt vielleicht nachm Abi so sehr fühlen und sagen so, oh, jetzt gibt ja AI, ich mach jetzt dieses Informatikstudio mit links und dann vielleicht auf da noch mal auch falsche Erwartungen dann treffen zu Beginn? Ist mir jetzt nicht in größerer Zahl begegnet. Mhm. Das sind vielleicht aber auch nicht die, die das so propagieren, ne. Also die gehen ja vielleicht jetzt nicht in die 1. Vorlesung und sagen so, also, das mach ich alles mit links. Ja. Aber nee, aber so ist vielleicht nicht nur Informatik selbst, aber so generell, dass Leute sich das eher noch mal zutrauen, so von wegen, hey, ich hab jetzt die riesige Hilfe dadurch so. Son Studium schaff ich jetzt noch mal einfacher. Nach sonem Gedanken, den ich jetzt auch hatte, so, neben dem Beruf noch mal 'n Studium machen, weil mit der AI kann ich's ja easy. Aber sei mal dahingestellt, wie gut das funktioniert. Ja. Was ich denke, was wichtig ist nach wie vor, also abgeleitet aus der Argumentation von eben, warum sich's noch lohnt, was was benötigen zukünftige Informatikerin, Informatikern Skills? Ich denke, dass gerade im technischen Kernbereich, ja, sehr gutes, sehr tiefes technisches Wissen notwendig sein wird, auch in der Zukunft über Programmierung, über Software, Datenbanken, Netzwerk, Betriebssysteme. Ja, eigentlich den ganzen Stack hoch und runter wird man einfach auch die Komplexität entsprechend erfassen müssen und auch immer diesen kommunikativen Weg vom, ja, vom Problem zum Programm, der alte Spruch. Was, da hat irgendjemand eine Idee hier bei euch, oh, da könnte man vielleicht mal 'n Game machen oder da könnte man irgendwie eine andere Welt erschaffen oder Ähnliches. Das ist ja manchmal etwas unscharf noch die anfängliche Idee. Das erst mal zu fokussieren, zu ordnen, dann schließlich runterzubrechen, dann irgendwann mal prototypisch umzusetzen und dann zu schauen, trägt das auch dauerhaft? Macht das überhaupt Sinn? Das denke ich, ist ist nach wie vor sind so die zentralen fachlichen Skills, die dann natürlich jetzt auch angereichert werden, zusätzliche KI Skills. Denkt der Informatiker, die Informatikerin muss da wirklich auch in den KI Verfahren, ja, den berühmten Blick unter die Haube haben und sehr tiefes Wissen drüber haben. Einfaches Beispiel, es gibt irgendein Dataset aus 'ner Fachabteilung und da soll klassifiziert werden. Da wer ein bisschen geschickt den prompt formuliert, kriegt auch ohne Programmierkenntnisse schnell ein Resultat. Aber ja, was heißt das jetzt, wenn da irgendein Score kommt, irgendeine Metrik, die diese Klassifikation beschreibt oder ist ein bestimmtes Verfahren überhaupt auf diesem Dataset angemessen anwendbar oder nicht und Ähnliches. Das sind dann alles, denke ich, Fragestellungen, bei denen sich dann schon die die tiefe Fachexpertise immer noch auch in der Zukunft abheben wird vom allgemeinen Vibecoder. Kurz da noch mal nachgehackt, von wegen Fachexpertise. Das klang aber für mich jetzt weniger nach 'ner technischen Tiefe, die da verlangt wird, sondern eher vielleicht mehr spezifischer Domainwissen, weil Du gesagt hast so, irgendwie man muss wissen so, ist das Datenset dafür geeignet oder wie interpretiert man die Daten und so, dass es also eigentlich gar nicht so dieses Technische ist, was da relevant ist, sondern viel mehr doch diese Domäne, was auch Jan grad am Anfang meinte, so von wegen diese Bindestrichinformatiker, so haben wir die immer genannt. Erst lass nicht da. Und ein Professor auch immer, die Bindestrichinformatiker gehatet. Da sind sie auch keine richtigen Informatiker. Ich war so 1 zum Beispiel. Ja. Nee, aber genau, also dass eher dieses Domainwissen wichtig ist, aber gar nicht mehr dieses technische Tiefe. Ja, ich denke ich denk beides. Also auch die technische Tiefe, wie funktioniert der Algorithmus oder auch Dinge an 'nem Dataset, die unabhängig von der Domäne sind, wenn zum Beispiel Daten sehr ungleich verteilt sind, was ich ja gerade bei Klassifikationsproblemen sehr, sehr häufig habe, ja, dass man einfach versteht, was dort entsprechend abläuft. Aber da gebe ich dir recht, auch das Domänenwissen beziehungsweise auch die Bereitschaft, kommunikativ zu sein, auch gegenüber dann den Anwenderinnen und Anwendern insbesondere. Das wird auch 'n zunehmender Skill sein, denn wenn es dann darum geht, KI Systeme zu bauen, dann kommt ja jeder, da kommt irgendwie HR und will damit Bewerbungsverfahren optimieren, im Marketing sowieso, im Kundenservice will man den idealen Chatbot haben und ja vielleicht am Ende muss man's auch noch den Manager erklären, das ist vielleicht dann die schwerste Aufgabe, der war am Abend vorher im Rotary Club und alle Kumpels oder nee, wie heißen die im Rotary Club, Rotary Brüder, ich weiß es nicht. Ja. Bin ich dann. Wir haben gesagt, oh, wir machen KI und das ist das tolle Ding und so. Das brauchen wir jetzt auch. Und der, ja bevor man jetzt dieses, ja was ist das, Fear of Missing Out Fomo, nicht. Dieser Effekt tritt dann auch da ein und sagt, das brauchen wir auch, machen Sie mal. Ist egal was, aber machen Sie mal. Und da vielleicht auch mal sagen, ja gut, es muss aber auch sinnvoll sein und der Use Case muss irgendwie da sein. Ich denke auch das ist ein wichtiger Punkt. Und damit vielleicht auch noch mal, ich hatte eben son paar fachliche Kenntnisse gesagt, ich denke auch nach wie vor die ganzen Soft Skills, auch wenn's jetzt vielleicht 'n bisschen abgenudelt klingt, wie Selbstorganisation, Teamfähigkeit, ja, kritisches Denken hinterfragen. Ja, gerade kritisches Denken ist ja wichtig, was da generiert worden ist. Ist das denn überhaupt plausibel? Ist es verantwortbar, dass wir das jetzt produktiv nehmen und so weiter? Reflexion damit eng verbunden, die gelten nach wie vor wieder und die werden, ja, ich denke, der Job wird dort, grade auch das wieder auf deine Frage zum Domainwissen wird entsprechend dann noch kommunikativer als er schon ist oder in den in der Vergangenheit war und eben angereichert dieses KI Wissen, wie gesagt, man ist der der Vermittler, der Experte im Unternehmen hatte ich grad schon angedeutet und auch da ganz ganz wichtiger Skill, ja dieser ganze Bereich, ich nenne ihn mal Ethik und Dokumentation Compliance Automatisieren. Ja Compliance Regeln, ist das ethisch verantwortbar? Mhm. Wie sieht's mitm Urheberrecht aus? Kann man da alles problemlos irgendwie reinwerfen? Ja, Datenschutz, KI Regulierung, branchenspezifische Einschränkungen und so weiter gibt's ja auch, dass da gewisse Dinge in zum Beispiel ja, im sicherheitskritischen Bereich, die wird man zum Beispiel nicht in in öffentlichen Systemen hochladen wollen. Von den ganzen Fragen, die Du gerade oder die ganzen Punkte, die Du gerade genannt hast, sind ja manche eigentlich auch schon altbekannt, ja, also Dokumentationen, bisschen ethisches Hinterfragen, das haben wir auch bei anderen Technologien schon gesehen, ja. Manches ist vielleicht jetzt 'n bisschen neuer und da würde mich interessieren, wie findet das so seinen Weg in das Curriculum bei euch? Ja, also der KI Boom, den wir so aktuell sehen, der hat ja vielleicht so angefangen, ich sag mal, 21, 22, da gab's so frühe GPT Modelle, da haben das son paar Insider immer noch so vor sich hin benutzt. Da wart ihr ja wahrscheinlich nicht die Ersten, die gesagt haben, boah, das wird in 5 Jahren richtig groß, lasst uns mal die ganzen Curriculum umschreiben, damit wir denn darauf vorbereitet. Also, weil man darf ja auch nicht auf jeden Hype zu früh aufspringen, ja. Also ich kann mir vorstellen, wenn ihr 'n paar Jahre vorher auf dem Blockchain Hype drauf gesprungen wärt, ja, das hätte vielleicht nicht so gut funktioniert. Und und wie findet sone Abwägung statt? Also was dann konkret passiert, können wir gerne danach noch mal drüber sprechen, aber überhaupt, wie wie kommt dieser 1. Impuls überhaupt erst mal zustande und zu sagen so, oh, da ist was, das sollten wir uns vielleicht noch mal dediziert anschauen? Ja, man muss erst mal selber die grad genannten Skills anwenden und zwar in dem Fall auch die die die Reflexion. Ist das überhaupt so relevant, dass man darauf reagieren muss? Du hast die Blockchain genannt und ja, da gab's ja genug Buzzwords in der IT in den letzten 20 Jahren, wenn man da Jeden Monat ein neues eigentlich. Ja, ja, genau. Wenn man da jedes Mal das Curriculum angepasst hätte, ja, das das wär ja gar nicht handhabbar gewesen und ja, ich denke, das ist erst mal der 1. Schritt, dass man das wahrnimmt und nicht abtut, gerade auch bei der generativen KI. Das ist schon, ja, es wird ja allzu oft gesagt, das ist disruptiv, was da kommt. Ich denke, hier ist das wirklich gerechtfertigt, das Adjektiv zu benutzen, denn ja, im Gegensatz zu allen anderen Entwicklungen jetzt auch gerade in in der Softwareentwicklung und und und Hilfen, die man dort gehabt hat an an an Tools, an an an Case Werkzeugengeneratoren und so weiter, geht's ja schon noch mal darüber hinauf. Es ist ja nicht deterministischer Output, was bei rauskommt. Das ist ja im im im sonst im Entwicklungswerkzeug nicht. Wenn ich 'n AR Schema reinwerfe und der spuckt mir 'n SQL Skript aus, das geht gemäß 1 Algorithmus. Das ist nachvollziehbar, das kann ich dann auch, wenn der Algorithmus korrekt implementiert ist, sagen, das ist korrekt und guten Gewissens freigeben und das ist ja bei den generativen Systemen anders. Da geben ja unterschiedliche Systeme oder das gleiche System zu verschiedenen Zeitpunkten verschiedene Lösungen raus und das und und ist in der Lage, dann ja auch irgendwie noch mal nachzubessern, wenn man sagt, so so war's nicht, so ist es nicht. Und da liegen die Systeme ja unwahrscheinlich zu, finde ich. Das war ja anfangs ja, in den ersten Versionen hat er ja mehr oder weniger auf seine Meinung bestanden. Dann kam umgekehrt, dass es bisschen sehr schleimig wurde und klar wird, ja, da hast Du natürlich recht. Da sind dann ja auch jeder Antwort. Ja, sind dann ja auch Dinge viral gegangen. Da sollte irgendwie 2 plus 2 berechnen. Und wenn man lang genug sagt, das ist aber 5, hat er irgendwann gesagt, jo, hast recht. Ich mach genauen Analysen ist es halt so. Ja, damit muss man ja auch 'n Stück weit, ja, umgehen und das auch entsprechend bestellen. Also ich denke, das ist die die Berechtigung, dass da schon was hinter steckt, dass wir da entsprechend was tun müssen. Ja, wo passen wir das an? Ich denke, in den Die die gängigen Werkzeuge werden natürlich verwendet. Bei uns im dualen Studium dann auch noch mal unterschiedlich, wie stark das schon den jeweiligen Unternehmen entsprechend betrieben wird. Und ja, und dann versuchen wir eben auch die das dann im Curriculum entsprechend einfließen zu lassen, zum Beispiel indem weitere originäre KI Vorlesungen veranstaltet werden oder indem es eben Einzug erhält in in andere Vorlesungen. Wie oft wird denn das Curriculum so angepasst, jetzt unabhängig von AI oder oder nicht AI? Ist das was, was ihr euch wirklich so jedes Jahr wieder anschaut oder ist das son son Ich hab ja also Ja. Einmal jedes Jahrtausend. Na oder ist das mehr so Impuls getrieben irgendwo dazwischen, die funktioniert Also es ist ungefähr alle 7 Jahre 'n großer Akkreditierungszyklus, dass also wirklich die ganze Geschichte überarbeitet wird, auch noch mal reflektiert wird, ob das Studienmodell so noch passend ist oder dann auch größere Veränderungen entsprechend vorgenommen werden. Und das wär natürlich sehr schwierig, wenn man dann sagt, ja, das ist jetzt akkreditiert und in 7 Jahren gucken wir mal, was da noch von der KI zum Beispiel geblieben ist. Ja. Deswegen im Kleineren können dann natürlich auch einzelne neue Module entsprechend definiert werden oder innerhalb bestehender Module dann auch Änderungen und Anpassungen vorgenommen werden. Also jetzt zum Beispiel im Software Engineering entsprechende KI generative KI Werkzeuge einsetzt, das das bedarf natürlich keiner Curriculumsänderung. Das steht ja wahrscheinlich auch in der Modulbeschreibung, ich hab's jetzt nicht den den genauen Wortlaut, aber steht ja wahrscheinlich unter Einsatz moderner Werkzeuge und das entscheidet dann der Dozent oder die Dozentin, was an der Stelle modern ist. Es gibt ja so mehrere Dimensionen davon, wie sich KI quasi niederschlagen kann bei euch den Alltag. Das eine ist über den Lehrplan inhaltlich, ja, wir sprechen darüber, wie neuronale zu funktionieren, wie Transformer funktionieren, was Pre Training ist, was Post Training ist und so weiter. Das andere ist wahrscheinlich auch, wie Studierende selbst KI Tools nutzen können, dürfen, sollen. Mhm. Dann wahrscheinlich aber auch, wie das in Prüfungssituationen auszusehen hat und ja wahrscheinlich aber auch, wie das auf eurer Seite aussieht. Also auch für Lehrende ist ja die Frage so, wie kann ich das nicht für mich selbst auch irgendwie nutzen, Material zu erstellen, Prüfungsszenarien zu, also weiß nicht, aber das sind so, glaube ich, die die Punkte, wo es überall relevant werden kann, oder? Ja, natürlich. Prüfung korrigieren, automatisieren. Ich les mir das nicht mehr durch. Na ja, ich glaube, Du hast das tatsächlich in in der Informatik noch 'n bisschen vielleicht weiter weg, weil die ein oder anderen Prüfungen ja vielleicht binärer sind als in anderen Fächern. Aber wenn Du jetzt vorstellst, ich hab ja Politikwissenschaft studiert Stimmt. Und da muss halt wirklich lange Essays und Präsentationen und so was halten, also Jetzt lesen wir den Scheiß nicht mehr durch. Ich kann mir durchaus von meinen alten Professoren den ein oder anderen Vorstell, der sagt so, ja, ChatGPT, sagen wir mal, wie sah das denn hier bei dem Jan aus und hat er irgendwie die Aufgabenstellung erfüllt oder so was dann? Ja, davor war das irgend 'n Mitarbeiter, heute ist es ChatGPT, ja. Ja, wofür gibt's halt studentische Hilfskräfte, ja. Ja, Genau. Also Prüfungsformate insbesondere, das ist schon auch 'n Punkt, der aktuell sehr stark diskutiert wird bei uns, weil ja manche Dinge, die jetzt über die letzten Jahrzehnte, kann man schon fast sagen, Routine geworden sind, eben nicht mehr funktionieren. Also ich möchte gern mal die Prüfungsdinge in so 3 Kategorien einteilen. Das 1. Sind die normalen Module, die als offener Vorlesung entsprechend basieren. Da denke ich, ist am Ende die Prüfungsform ja, die klassische Klausur wird da eine Renaissance erleben. Das ist jetzt vielleicht auch nicht besonders populär oder pädagogisch modern. In den letzten Jahren hat man ja eher versucht, so semesterbegleitende Prüfungsformen zu etablieren oder irgendwie kombinierte Prüfungsleistungen oder Ähnliches. Da denke ich, wird eher wieder der Switch zurück zur klassischen Klausur oder zur mündlichen Prüfung Ja. Kommen. Beide mit verschiedenen Vor- und Nachteilen, die die ja bekannt sind. Also das ist denke ich, das ist so das das klassische Modul. Ja dann haben wir ja die Dinge, wo praktisch gearbeitet wird. Das heißt in der Informatik am Anfang typischerweise die Programmierübungen und und in in Datenbanken noch der Einstieg in SQL eigentlich klassischerweise. Da wird, da funktioniert's natürlich nicht mehr, dass man wöchentlich 'n Aufgabenblatt hat und gerade in in soner Anfängervorlesung ist man ja, hat man ja deutlich überschaubare Schemagröße oder Schwierigkeitsgrad der Programmieraufgabe. Da machen heutige, ja, allgemeine, öffentlich zugängliche LLM Systeme, sind sie sehr, sehr nah an den 100 Prozent dran, die sie dort einfach lösen. Das heißt, dort müssen wir irgendwie uns dann die Lösung noch mal präsentieren lassen, erklären lassen. Mhm. Vielleicht auch da gar nicht so was Neues. Also waren's vorhin ja schon in den Neunzigerjahren. Ich hab in Oldenburg studiert. Da habe ich selber als Student und ich war dann später auch Tutor in der Programmiervorlesung. Ist in Niedersachsen Oldenburg, oder? Ja, genau. Ah, ich kenn mich aus Geografiefeister. Genau. Ja. Da da hat er's Korrektur in Anwesenheit genannt, dass dann wöchentlich Aufgaben abgegeben wurden und so stichprobenartig hat man dann sone Zweiergruppe mal befragt, wo's damit Das haben wir in der Oberstufe auch schon gemacht, das fand ich immer gut. Ach nee, ich hatte es im Studium auch. Genau. Oder das ganze Anttestator oder sollen wir das genannt, irgendwie bevor Du überhaupt zugelassen wirst zu irgendeiner prüfen oder so. Genau, genau. Also das wird man schon noch da an der Stelle verstärken verstärken müssen, diese diese nach, also die die Erklärungen, was ja Antestate, kleines Kolloquium, Erklärung, Nachfrage und so weiter. Das denke ich, wird bei diesen Laborarbeiten verstärkt. Wir hatten ja vor 2 Wochen, also wir haben ja ab und zu immer mal hier Studenten auch zu Gast. Stimmt. Vor 2 Wochen war wieder von der TM in Gießen eine Gruppe hier. Nee, Friedberg. Friedberg war das? Ja, stimmt, Die hab ich auch son bisschen gefragt, wie ist bei denen alles so ändert? Ich dachte, ich bereite mich schon mal hier so inhaltlich diese Folge vor. Gut, ja. Die haben mir auch erzählt, ja, manchmal muss ich mich auch vorbereiten. Und die haben mir erzählt, dass sie jetzt als Prüfungsformat auch neu eingeführt haben für alles, was haben für alles, was eigentlich so länger laufende Projekte sind, wo's am Ende früher mal so eine große Abschlussarbeit gab, ja, sagen, na ja, die machen so alle 2 Wochen, glaub ich, son Minikollochium eben und das quasi das ganze Semester über. Und es gibt quasi am Ende nur eine Note für all diese Einzelgespräche sozusagen. Es gibt jetzt nicht die eine große Prüfungssituation, sondern Du wirst halt andauernd sozusagen im laufenden Betrieb geprüft. Warte und aber musst Du dir irgendwas zeigen? Ist das 'n Projekt, das Du dir für 2 Wochen mitnimmst oder wie, wirst Du einfach Nee, nee, die kriegen quasi ein Projekt, was die das ganze Semester über macht und sie sprechen quasi Immer im Zwischenetappen. Genau. Über die Zwischenetappen, was ist der Fortschritt, wie haben wir das gelöst, woran hängen wir grade? Und das ist natürlich, fand ich auch irgendwie 'n cooles Format, son bisschen, na, weil da kannst Du, ad hoc kannst Du ja nicht irgendwie andere Tools nehmen, Du musst das dann selber beantworten können alles und Du musst selber artikulieren können, was auch dein Problem ist, was egal wie sehr man jetzt eher ein nutzt oder nicht, allein artikulieren zu können, woran scheiterst Du gerade, was brauche ich, was was ist die Challenge so? Ja. Das ist ja schon mal 'n wichtiger Skill. Und das fand ich eigentlich ganz interessantes Format, hab ich mir gedacht so, das hätte ich mir auch zu meinem Studium schon gewünscht irgendwie, nicht so diese eine Prüfungssituation zu haben, wo man ehrlicherweise auch vielleicht mal 'n schlechten Tag haben kann oder 'n Aussetzer oder so, sondern einfach zu sagen, so kontinuierlich schauen, wie ist dein progress, wie verhältst Du dich, wie näherst Du dich dem Problem, wie ist dein Lösungsansatz und das dann zu bewerten, fand ich gut. Ja, interessant. Ich ich ich würd vielleicht einfach noch vor einen Punkt zurückkommen, den Du gerade erwähnt hast, Olaf, den fand ich nämlich sehr interessant. So grad, was Du gesagt hast, sone, wenn diese klassischen Programmiermodule oder auch Datenbankensystem, was ja so, glaub ich, son klassisches Modul ist. Und da muss ja auch eine Aussage von vorhin denken, die Du gesagt hast, von wegen, na ja, man muss diese technische Tiefe haben. Ich glaub, Zitat von dir, man muss verstehen, wie dieser Algorithmus funktioniert. Und da erinner ich mich zum Beispiel auch an meine Studienzeit. Da hatten wir das große Modul Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen, wird's wahrscheinlich in soner Form auch genau bei euch geben. Ist so irgendwie so das Aussiehtmodul generell. Und da haben wir ja wirklich noch gelernt, so ne, was ist Screens, was sind Integer, so was ist irgendwie 'n Array, was sind Listen bla bla. Und wie schreibt man jetzt diesen Algorithmus, der das und das macht oder hier ist 'n Algorithmus, was kommt am Ende dabei raus und so was alles, ne, dass wir sehr stark drauf eingegangen sind. Und da ist vielleicht bei mir son bisschen diese ketzerische Frage an der Stelle so, ist es etwas, was wir in Zukunft tatsächlich wirklich noch brauchen? So, ne, weil also wenn es jetzt darum geht zum Beispiel, also ne, also ehrlicherweise damals hab ich auch schon hinterfragt, wir haben so was wie implementier man so, ne. So und dabei hab ich gefragt, na ja, wie oft brauch ich in meinem beruflichen Alltag 'n? Wie oft hast Du bei Lotum schon implementiert? Nie. Nie. So, ne. Weil natürlich mittlerweile gilt's ja auch die ganzen Hilfsfunktion, ne, Punkt Sort und so was alles. Und natürlich kann man jetzt noch mal, ne, wieder die Frage stellen so, na ja, aber sone wird das perfekt für mich lösen so eigentlich auf auf dieser kleinen Mikrokosmosebene. Und genau, und da vielleicht an der Stelle dann wirklich so sehr, sehr hardlinig gefragt so, ist das überhaupt noch notwendig, dieses tiefe Verständnis von Algorithmen, von Datenstrukturen, von Datenbank Querys dann beizubringen und zu lernen? In Kürze, ja. Etwas etwas ausführlicher. Mir können wir abbrechen. Folge ist fertig. Ja. Etwa Vielen Dank fürs Zuhören. Bis nächste Woche. Ja, etwas ausführlicher. Ich halte Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen für für die Praxis, für ein ganz, ganz wahnsinnig wichtiges Modul. Und grade Sortieralgorithmen hast Du angesprochen. Mhm. Neben dem, man guckt sich ja so 6, 7 Sortieralgorithmen. Ja, Burnen Sword, Bubbles Sword. Genau, genau. Und das macht man nicht macht man nicht, weil das Sortiersystem Sortierproblem so so essenziell ist. Das ist ja eigentlich klar, Dinge in Ordnung bringen. Ja. Oder weil man später dann irgendwie einen dieser Algorithmen jemals implementieren müsste oder noch optimieren müsste oder sonst irgendwas, aber einfach dieses Verständnis allein diese Tatsache, dass für son relativ überschaubares Problem es diese Vielzahl an Algorithmen gibt, das ist wieder dieses vom Problem zum Programm. Das Problem ist das Sortieren. Ich hab eine Vielzahl von Algorithmen. Ich kann die Algorithmen noch mal unterschiedlich implementieren. Ich kann den, ich ich hab die 2 großen Gruppen der der quadratischen, einfachen Sortierverfahren und der schnellen. Das ist ja auch eine 1 wahnsinnige Sache. Wenn ich in irgendeinem anderen Problem, das ist dann natürlich der das Geld, dass ich das mitnehme. Was heißt es denn, wenn jetzt irgendetwas quadratisch ist und wenn man dann mal mit 'ner auf 'nem entsprechend großen Array hat laufen lassen, dann weiß man, dass weiß man, was quadratisch heißt, geht Die o von n Notation. Genau. Geht damit noch. Lauf ja nicht reflektiert. Oh, aber nicht ausm Studium. Nein. Ja, okay. Genau. Also von dem her, glaube ich, ist das immer noch unwahrscheinlich wichtig. Und und diese Ideen, die werden ja auch wieder aufgegriffen im anderen Kontext. Also neben Sortieren macht man dann ja auch Haching, baumbasierte Suchverfahren Mhm. Und so weiter. Und die Ideen brauche ich dann ja auch wieder auf modernen Systemen. Schließt son bisschen den Kreis zur Javaland oder Defland, Vektordatenbanken. Ja. Wenn Vektordatenbanken indexiert werden, da habe ich mir da aber mal auch wieder hash basierte oder baum basierte oder auf irgend 'ner anderen Datenstrukturen, auf grafen basierte Verfahren. Und die Entwicklerinnen und Entwickler, die haben auch in Algorithmen Datenstrukturen eine gute Vorlesung gehabt, die das transferieren konnten. Ja. Mhm. Ich möchte vielleicht noch mal das aufgreifen, was Du gesagt hast, dieses übers Semester. Das ist, ich hatte ja gesagt, Laborarbeiten, klassische Module. Der weitere Bereich sind dann Studien, Bachelor, arbeiten, Masterarbeit und bei uns im dualen Studium auch die die die Praxisberichte und arbeiten. Da denke ich, ist auch zu viel KI Generierung zu vermeiden, ja, gerade sone engere Betreuung notwendig, dass man wirklich in sonem 2 Wochen Rhythmus sieht, wie so etwas entsteht in sonem Projekt und dann kriegt man ja schon mit, wer sich Gedanken macht und wer da versucht, mit relativ schlankem Fuß raus sag ich mal. Wenn Du sagst, engere Betreuung. Mhm. Hochschulen sind ja jetzt nicht dafür bekannt, dass sie mit unendlich vielen Mitteln ausgestattet sind. Ja. Das ist ja am Ende auch einfach 'n Personalproblem dann, oder? Ja, ja. Ja, also diese Betreuung jetzt bei bei Studienarbeiten beispielsweise, also ich mach in der Regel dann im 14 Tages Rhythmus im Semester Termine mit den Studierenden. Das ist an der Stelle dann schon, ja, denke ich, gehört dazu. Das bringt einfach das das die die Lehrtätigkeit da entsprechend mit sich. Das das gehört dazu, dass man nicht dem Studium am Anfang das Thema gibt und sagt, in 9 Monaten kann's abgeben und dann ja, schiebe ich das Ding mal bei ChatGPT rein und lass mir das Gutachten generieren. Das ja wäre auch nicht nicht nicht fair den Studierenden gegenüber, muss man einfach mal sagen. Die eigentliche Arbeit am Ende, die verliert dann vielleicht sogar ein bisschen an Gewicht, dass man dann bei der Bewertung auch mehr den den Fortschritt, die Idee, das Denken in Alternativen, da hat 1 irgend eine Lösung gefunden, irgend eine Architektur. Was wären, es gibt immer Alternativen und immer Kriterien, an denen ich das objektiv festmachen kann, egal für welche Lösung ich mich dann auch entscheide, dass all diese ja vorhin genannten weicheren Skills, wie hat der Student die Studentin die im Projekt angesetzt, dass man das verstärkt in die Begutachtung mit mit reinnimmt. Wobei auch das Schreiben nach wie vor, denke ich, eine wichtige Sache ist, auch im Informatik oder allgemein im technischen Umfeld. Wir brauchen nicht nur laufenden Code, sei ja selbst geschrieben, sei ja generiert, sei ja orchestriert oder wie auch immer zusammengestöpselt. Wir brauchen dann auch technische Dokumentation. Wir brauchen Handbücher. Wir brauchen Ausschreibungstexte in gewissen Szenarien und Branchen und so weiter und da muss man eben auch selber formulieren können und auch das das Schreiben selber an einem Dokument. Beim Schreiben denkt man auch nach, beim Schreiben reflektiert man. Beim Schreiben kommen einem manchmal auch Ideen, das hat man irgendwie im Kopf, also hier wieder bei euch, ah da könnten wir mal ein tolles Spiel machen, das irgend eine abstrakte Idee und dann beim Aufschreiben stellen wir fest, so wird's wahrscheinlich doch nicht ganz Ist nicht so lustig. Funktionieren. Ja. Oder ich geborene's noch mal jemand anderen zum drüberlesen und der sagt, was was soll das denn oder was hast dir dabei denn gedacht? Also dieser der der Prozess des Schreibens an sich, der ist auch im technischen Umfeld ein 1 auch ein wichtiger Soft Skill nach wie vor. Aber ich würd nicht sagen per se das Schreiben an sich, sondern einfach dieses Aussprechen und Festhaltende Idee. Also sei es jetzt Schreiben, sei es jetzt auch diktieren so, ne, das ist halt Ja, also das ist jetzt nicht Schreiben mit Stimmt oder Ja, aber ich glaube, dass die das zu Ende denken Genau, genau. Der Idee so, dadurch den Punkt, ne. Ich hab auch letzte Woche an 'nem Prototypen gesessen und im Prinzip kann man ja in deutscher, englischer, menschlicher Sprache die Idee schon so konkret aufschreiben, dass der Schritt zum Code eigentlich nicht mehr, also nur noch 'n Übersetzungsproblem ist sozusagen, ne. Und man kann ja jedes Problem eigentlich schon so genau ausspezifizieren, so genau zu Ende denken, dass man schon merkt, okay, klappt das oder klappt das nicht? Und ob ich das dann am Ende in, weiß nicht, in in c, in Java, in Python, in irgendwas noch mal portiere, damit das Laufweg ist, das ist ja dann der allerletzte kleinste Schritt sozusagen. Aber 90 Prozent von der Arbeit sind ja vorher schon schon passiert sozusagen. Und ich glaube, das ist das das Wichtige, dieses zu Ende denken. Mhm. Und ob Du das jetzt diktierst, sprichst, malst oder irgendwas, ich glaube, der Skill ist im Kopf, das konsequent durchzugehen. Mhm. Aber weil Du Schreiben und Denken gesagt hast, hat hat Lesen auch jetzt vielleicht noch mal sone andere Rolle bekommen, weil das ist das, was wir hier auch immer son bisschen diskutieren, ja. In dem Moment, wo wo mehr Code quasi fremd erzeugt wird, ich ja aber trotzdem noch dafür verantwortlich bin, ja. Hier bei uns sind wir inhaltlich da verantwortlich, bei euch ist man in der Prüfung dann spätestens dafür verantwortlich, muss man ja quasi viel mehr Code lesen, verstehen lernen, den man gar nicht selber geschrieben hat, was da sone Challenge war, die's früher vielleicht weniger gab, weil der meiste Code, den man gelesen hatte, war man vorher schon mal irgendwie involviert. Und jetzt ist man immer nur noch son unbeteiligter Dritter sozusagen in diesem ganzen Szenario. Und das finde ich doch immer son sehr anderer Skillset als als vorher. Weil weiß nicht, Dave, hatten Sie's das auch so? Hundertprozentig. Also es ist ja, also allein aus der Vergangenheit, was ich erkenne, ein 1 PR zu und ein PR zu machen so, ist ja also ist ja, nee wie Tag und Nacht, aber ist schon 'n Unterschied, ne. Weil einfach so, okay, was hat sich die Person dabei gedacht so? Und wenn ich in der 'n paar PR erstelle, dann Also ich weiß ja, was meine Gedanken dazu waren. So, irgendwie dabei erst mal nach zu nennen, ach so, der das so und so aufgezogen, damit das und das Ergebnis am Ende rauskommt so. Und das ist natürlich, also ist nicht 'n ganz anderer Skill, aber ich find auf jeden Fall anstrengender, Punkt 1. Und man muss da doch noch mehr Zeit reinstecken, als man meint. Ja, denke ich auch. Also das das Problem war, denke ich, auch in der Vergangenheit schon da, wenn man alten Code geerbt hat, den irgendwer irgendwie entwickelt hat, sage ich mal vorsichtig. Aber ja, wenn's jetzt nicht nicht ganz hanebüchen war, was dass irgendeiner was zusammen gehackt hat, war's immer noch menschlich produzierter Code, der gewissen Richtlinien unterlag und wenn er im eigenen Unternehmen, im eigenen Team war, dann hat man ja schon gewisse Coding Styles Richtlinien. Wann werden welche Muster wie verwendet? Wie werden Variablen benannt und so weiter, was einem ja grade die Lesbarkeit dann schon entsprechend oder auch Dokumentationsrichtlinien, was einem dann ja schon die Lesbarkeit und Verständlichkeit erhöhen soll. Das wird natürlich jetzt durch fremd generierten Code noch mal erschwert, weil man einfach aus verschiedenen mit verschiedenen Styles ja auch Code haben kann, der an verschiedenen Stellen generiert worden ist und dann in in in das Gesamtpaket irgendwie eingeflossen ist. Also das denke ich auch und aber auch dafür wieder noch mal, komme ich noch mal zum Argument von vorhin zurück, ist es notwendig, ja, ich denke auch selber mal codiert zu haben noch mal, Auf jeden Fall hat man gar keine Chance, das irgendwie zu verstehen. Ja, und auch das das tiefe Verständnis, tiefe technische Verständnis dort dann für für Algorithmen. Also wenn man dann sieht, da ist eine fünffach geschachtelte Schleife, dann hat man sofort, ja der Alarmglocken. Der geübte Blick sagt, ja, wenn da eine signifikant große Anzahl Durchläufe ist, ist das langsam. Das erkennt man dann ja auch. Und und das ist dann sicherlich die Aufgabe zu, das zu erkennen, zu überlegen, muss es so sein? Vielleicht geht's ja auch nicht anders an der Stelle oder kann man da in diesem Methoden rum vielleicht irgendwas dran drehen und und entsprechend besser machen? Ich ich ich fühl mich grad son bisschen in der Rolle von Dennis, son bisschen der Lichter ist. Dennis ist 'n großer AI Verfechter bei uns, bei Loto generell und sagt, na ja, das sind aktuelle Probleme, aber in paar Monaten muss man das nicht mehr machen. Und ich ich ich würd das nicht auch son bisschen in die Richtung gehen, also ich ich ich geh mit dir mit auf jeden Fall, dass ich sagen würde, ja, es ist auf jeden Fall superpraktisch, jetzt noch halt Coach schreiben zu können, so, ne, als wir's zumindest mal gemacht haben. Also beispielsweise wir, also ich war jetzt auch im Bewerbungsverfahren tätig und wir haben trotzdem auch geprüft so, kann der Bewerber hier jetzt Code schreiben? So, ist er in der Lage so, ne. Das Ergebnis ist auch nicht so unbedingt wichtig, aber halt so dieses, ah, okay, ja, dieses grundlegende Verständnis ist schon mal gut. Und ich ich jetzt irgendwie aber mir denke so, es gab ja schon auch in der Vergangenheit in der Informatik so verschiedene Abstraktionsebenen. Also weißt Du wahrscheinlich noch mal viel besser als ich, als 90, also nicht 90. Okay. Vorsichtig. Als Informatiker der Neunzigerjahre, so. Formulieren kann ich. Genau. Nee, ne, das ist so, also die ersten Programmiersprachen versus jetzt die, die dann später dazukamen, die ja dann mal viel krasser waren, ne. Sei's jetzt irgendwie Java, Python, Typescript, dass sie auch viele Sachen besser gemacht hat, ne. Auch jetzt grad, wir sind ja auch sehr stark im Web Development, die ganzen Frameworks, die ja existieren, die ja einfach nur eine Abstraktionsebene für uns abnehmen. Und dann, also wir sind einfach eine Ebene drüber und wir müssen uns jetzt nicht mehr Reaktivität kümmern so. Das macht ja alles das Framework für uns. Und das jetzt, wenn man das noch mal weiterspinnt und denkt so, na ja, die AI nimmt uns die Abstraktionsebene Programmieren ab und wir sind dann, wie Du eingangs gesagt hast, son bisschen, na ja, wir wir sind so die Architekten. Wir schauen so, dass das ganze System funktioniert. Wir orchestrieren und so was alles, dass das unsere Aufgabe ist. Und dass halt quasi die die Final Abstraktionsebene, wo wir uns immer geholfen haben, so Programmieren einfacher zu machen, dass jetzt so die letzte Stufe sein könnte so, okay, der Teil wird uns genommen, irgendwie diesen Code dann auch zu schreiben. Mhm. Dass man das nicht so weiter spinnen könnte. Ja, also ich denke, es wird noch da noch deutlich auch Weiterentwicklungen geben. Die Systeme können durch gezieltes Nachtrainieren, durch Verbesserungen, durch weitere Mechanismen, Inferenzmechanismen und Ähnliches noch besser werden und noch besseren Code dann auch generieren in ja, nah mittlerer Zukunft, ohne da jetzt was Konkretes zu nennen. Aber ich glaube, dass die das vollständige Wegorganisieren der dieser Abstraktion, dass das das eigentliche Progers, eigentliche Kodieren da komplett abzugeben, wegzuabstrahieren wird mit den Systemen, die die wir heute kennen, nicht nicht möglich sein. Man wird immer noch an gewissen Stellen den den Einblick benötigen. Das noch mal zu ergänzen zu deinem Beispiel mit den Frameworks. Da ja auch, es ist nach wie vor das oder oder die die Frameworks zu nennen, die Frameworks zu zu nutzen, sinnvoll zu nutzen, muss ich ja auch verstehen, was passiert da drunter. Also beispielsweise, wenn wir son in der Datenbankwelt son OER Mapper haben, Hypernate oder was Ähnliches. Wenn ich den ja verwende, ohne zu wissen, wie's in der Datenbank läuft und funktioniert, komme ich ja kann ich ja sehr, sehr schnell in in Performancenngpässe kommen, insbesondere wenn bei 'ner 1 zu viele Beziehung dann einzeln jeder Satz danach geladen wird und da sind 'n paar Millionen Tupel in der in der Detailrelation. Das heißt, wenn ich dieses Phänomen hab, das tritt dann zum Beispiel auf, dann muss ich ja auch wissen, ah, da stimmt was nicht, da muss ich, kann ich ja mit dem Framework möglicherweise lösen, aber es muss sich irgendwie anders nutzen, anders konfigurieren, wie man es da funktioniert. Mhm. Und dass die KI das dann da komplett übernimmt, glaub ich, stand heute nicht. Es ist ja auch nicht nur immer mehr, also was Du angesprochen hast, Dave ist ja eigentlich immer nur eine Abstraktionsebene höher, ne. Also am Anfang haben wir uns irgendwie von Lochkarten hin zu sprachen, dann kam irgendwie so was wie dazu und ne, also immer immer höher. Und ja, irgendwie die versuchen es, glaub ich, naheliegend zu sagen, na ja, wenn wir jetzt in menschlicher Sprache programmieren und dem LLM sagen, was wir haben wollen, dann ist das ja auch nur eine Abstraktionsstufe höher. Aber ich glaub, der fundamentale Unterschied, das ist das, was Olaf vorher gesagt hat, so ist ja dieser nicht deterministische Teil, der jetzt quasi als Teil dieses Layers irgendwie dazukommt. Und dementsprechend ist es eben nicht einfach nur mehr Abstraktion, sondern so diese Blackbox, von der man gar nicht sagen kann oder will, Mhm. Was und wie sie denn da so am Ende des Tages macht, so. Und andersrum formuliert kann ja KI auch nur so gut funktionieren, weil sie diese Blackbox ist, weil sie dieses nicht deterministische, generative Moment eben drin hat. Also, in dem Moment, wo Du sie zu sehr einschränkst, wieder auf hundertprozentige Sicherheit und Determinismus zurückzukommen, verlierst Du ja auch viele Effekte von dem, was sie dir gebracht hat. Ja. So, ja. Von daher wird es, glaub ich, immer son Spannungsverhältnis bleiben, zumindest auf absehbare Zeit, wenn dann nicht irgendwie architektonisch noch was ganz anderes vom Ansatz her die Ecke kommt, ja. Mhm. So, jetzt haben wir 'n bisschen darüber gesprochen, wie sich das inhaltlich verändert, wie das von Studierenden genutzt wird, wie das in Prüfungssituationen aussieht, aber mich würde natürlich auch interessieren, wie das für Lehrende selbst ist, ja, weil auch für euch liegt ja die die Versuchung, sag ich mal, positiv nahe, das auch irgendwie zu nutzen, ja. Jeder von uns hat Arbeit, hat was zu tun und ist immer irgendwie daran interessiert, dass sich sich zu vereinfachen. Und ja, wo wo nutzt Du das ganz konkret? Mhm, mhm, ja. Also ja, Professoren, Professoren sind ja von außen leicht im Verdacht, dass sie manchmal versuchen, ja, sehr ökonomisch zu handeln, zum Beispiel die gleiche Vorlesung über Jahre aufrechtzuerhalten. Ich hatte da mal einen Mathalehrer im in der Oberstufe, der immer gesagt hat, er nimmt seit Jahrzehnten dieselbe Prüfungsbögen. Er macht sie nur jedes Jahr dümmer, weil die Schüler immer schlechter werden. Die Ergebnisse wurden trotzdem nicht besser. Entschuldigung. Ja. Jetzt jetzt kann man sich ja im Prinzip irgendwie sagen, ich ich lass mir 'n Foliensatz generieren zu dem und dem Thema oder brech das im im Dialog son bisschen runter, sagt, das ist der Topic, dann gibt's eine Gliederung, dann verhandelt man noch mal 'n bisschen das Kapitel rein, das raus und meistens wird's einem ja schon angeboten, soll ich dir schon mal für Powerpoint und so weiter das vorbereiten? Also das das glaube ich, das ist nix. Also das hat das hat dann keine Qualität und kein keinen Tiefgang. Also wenn man sich vor eine Gruppe Studierender stellt oder auf 1 wissenschaftlichen oder Entwicklerkonferenz vor Menschen stellt und da was erzählt, dann muss man auch selber, also ich hab's ja gefordert, grad die die große technische Tiefe für die zukünftigen Studierenden, dann kann ich selber nicht als Oberflächenschwimmer daherkommen. Das ist das geht nicht. Deswegen, ja, wenn man bestehende Vorlesungen überarbeitet, neue Inhalte reinnimmt oder bestehende überarbeitete neue Vorlesung angeht, also erstelle ich die Vorlesungen dort selber, die die Folien. Und und man muss auch, wenn man da 'n Algorithmus hat und vorstellt, den muss man selber mal Schritt für Schritt ausgerechnet haben, wir hatten's vorhin ja im Vorgespräch, wie stark ist denn so die Interaktion? Na ja, da gibt's schon mal den einen oder anderen, der dann sagt, wie ist 'n das, wenn und so weiter und jetzt wollen wir mal schauen und so weiter und das das wären wir persönlich auch peinlich, da vorne zu stehen und im Grunde keine Ahnung zu haben. Das eine ist der dieser fachliche Teil, das andere ist ja auch immer so der die subjektive Wahrheit da dran, ne. Also ich hatte auch, als wir die Studierenden hier hatten, gefragt, wie würdet ihr euch denn fühlen, wenn ihr sehen würdet, euer Dozent, euer Professor steht da vorne und ihr nutzt hier Material, was halt offensichtlich jetzt so mit mit KI generiert. Das sind nicht unbedingt inhaltlich falsch oder so, also einfach dann, man sieht ja diesen diesen kreativen Stil, die Schreibweise, man kann das ja son bisschen Ja. Doch schon erkennen irgendwie. Und da gab's son sehr gespaltenes Feedback von den einen, die gesagt haben, so, ja, das ist ja voll okay, ich nutz KI, warum soll er das nicht nutzen können? Solange das inhaltlich irgendwie korrekt ist, ist, soll mir das recht sein. Und die anderen, die gesagt haben, na ja, ich hab mir ja schon diese Hochschule, diese Uni, diesen dieses Modul, diesen Dozent vielleicht auch im Zweifelsfall aussucht, weil ich ja was von ihm im Prinzip haben will und da auch an der an der Person ja wahrscheinlich auch 'n gewisser Wert hängt für die Studierenden so, ja. Und wenn da quasi KI so als als Gatekeeper son bisschen dazwischen fungiert, da haben wir gesagt, das würde sich für die schon son bisschen wie so, ja, nicht eine Mogelpackung, aber das hat halt son Beigeschmack, ja. Der da, das hat man und dann musste ich an den Fall denken. Ich glaub, wir hatten das auch mal in den News live, wo eine Studentin ihre Hochschule verklagt hat, weil eben ihr Dozent auch da KI Material genutzt hat, gesagt hat, na ja, das war eine private Hochschule, ich zahl hier viel Geld quasi, ja. Mhm. Und dann werde ich mit so KI Ergebnissen hier abgespeist in der Vorlesung. Das kann ja irgendwie auch nicht sein, so. Ja. Hat sie recht bekommen? Was war das Ergebnis von diesem Case? Sie hat, glaub ich, nicht recht bekommen. Ah. Aber ja, genau. Deswegen begrüße ich das auch, ja. Genau. Also das erst mal generell für die Vorlesung. Ja, so im Kleinen kann man's, denk ich, vielleicht schon nutzen, zum Beispiel sich Übungsaufgaben mal als Vorschlag generieren zu lassen. Auch da wieder das plumpe generieren und 1 zu 1 reinkopieren aufs eigene Übungsblatt funktioniert auch da nicht. Ist genau wie mitm Code. Es geht eben, was wie Begrifflichkeiten verwendet werden, wie Definitionen aufgebaut sind, geht's eben 'n Stück weit auseinander. Und das muss man dann schon auf die eigene auf die eigene Vorlesung entsprechend anpassen, adaptieren oder sagen, nee, die Aufgabe ist zwar nett gemeint, aber die passt jetzt da bei mir nicht rein. Ja. Und auch das kann man irgendwie nicht bringen als Dozierender, dass dann da irgendwie, ja, man ja sofort enttarnt ist heutzutage, wenn man da eine Aufgabe hat und da stehen Begriffe drin, die man selber nicht in der Vorlesung hatte. Ja. Ist ja klar, wo die Quelle entsprechend herkommt. Ja. Ich wie war das ganz kurz? Eine Folge war dazu noch. Wie war das bei euch im im Fachbereich? War das war das eine Diskussion? Weil ich mein, auch bei uns in in den Entwicklerteams her wird ja auch diskutiert so, wie viel wollen wir, wie viel sollen wir, wie viel müssen wir davon irgendwie nutzen, ja. Ja. Und gab's dann bei euch da auch Lehrer, die gesagt haben so, ja, nee, also ich ich will das überhaupt gar nicht oder die sich gerne noch mehr Einsatz gewünscht hätten oder gab's da überhaupt gar keine Diskussion? Ja, jetzt keine größere Diskussion. Aber es gibt schon eine ganze Menge, die da, die da, die da, die da, die ist es ja in Ordnung. Ich, ja, die die Aufgaben sind manchmal, wenn man sich zum Beispiel Aufgaben generieren lässt, da kann manchmal auch, Ja, das muss nicht falsch sein, aber es kann trotzdem didaktischer Humbug sein. Honor, ja. Also ich hatte neulich habe ich mir auch mal eine Aufgabe, neulich im letzten Wintersemester mal eine Aufgabe generieren lassen. Da ging's verschiedene statistische Streu- und Lagemasse, die wollten wir irgendwie für für Daten verwenden und da hab ich ihn noch mal wiederholt die Begriffe entsprechend so Median, Mittelwert, kumulative Distribution und so weiter, diese ganze Den, die man kennt. Ja, genau. Das ist ja auch nett. Oh ja, stimmt. Da sollte da sollte der 20 Zahlen zwischen 1 und 9 entsprechend generieren und dafür wollten wir das dann, das war unser Beispiel Dataset, woran wir das eben berechnen wollten. Und das hat er auch gemacht, hat auch die Lösungen alles korrekt rausgegeben, aber hatte eine komplette Gleichverteilung in den Daten. Also jede Ziffer kam gleich oft vor entsprechend. Dadurch war das Ding natürlich didaktisch unbrauchbar. Ich hab eine völlig gleiche Verteilung. Ja, Mittelwert und Median fallen ja schon zusammen und ja, ist eigentlich alles witzlos, das da dann zu demonstrieren. Da will man ja 'n bisschen asymmetrische Verteilung haben. Auch da wieder muss man raufgucken, muss sagen, die Aufgabe ist okay, aber jetzt noch mal mit Mit sinnvollen Daten. Ungleich Verteilung der der der Daten, genau. Ja. Kleine Anekdote auch aus unserem Leben. Wir wollten nämlich auch für unsere Bewerber haben wir nämlich auch Claude gefragt so, hey, stell mal bitte eine Aufgabe, die eine AI nicht lösen kann. Und dann so, okay, sone kleine Entwickleraufwerb kann man ja nur stellen. Und Claude dann so, ja, stell dir mir lieber die Aufgabe, ein Betriebssystem zu entwickeln. Das bringt keine AI. Und dann immer so, ja, kleine Einstiegsaufgabe. Lotum o s als Prüfhaussituation. Ja. Okay. Du hattest noch gefragt, ganze Abschlussarbeiten Ja. Sich begutachten zu lassen von der AI. Ist ja auch rechtlich, glaub ich, gar nicht bei uns so möglich, oder? Ja, es ist es ja genau. Also Mit lokalen LLMs, aber Ja, genau, genau. Also wir haben auch bei uns an der Hochschule ein lokales LLM, was geschützt in einem Moodle System drinliegt. Wenn man da 'n kompletten Text hochlädt, kommt aber auch die Warnung, ich darf gemäß der Richtlinien und so weiter hier keine, ich kann nur eine Einschätzung geben. Ja, ich ich glaub auch da ist die kommt die KI, sie kann sicherlich Stärken, Schwächen, irgendwie Punkte schon rausarbeiten, einem Orientierungspunkte geben. Aber sie wird da und da gab's 'n Artikel in der Nature, das waren ging jetzt Konferenzartikel, nicht studentische Arbeiten, aber die dort auch gerevued werden mussten. Es war im Bereich Lebenswissenschaften, Bio irgendwo angesiedelt. Da wurde das relativ systematisch untersucht, dass die Begutachtungen ja relativ viele Allgemeinplätze hatten wie das kann noch präziser sein, im Abschnitt über Related Work könnten noch weitere Quellen genannt werden und so weiter. Das das So sehr generisches Feedback. Ja, genau. Genau und und damit das Ganze auch dann irgendwo in der Mitte zusammenschiebt. Es es wurde wenig erkannt, was was schlechte Paper waren und die richtig Guten wurden dafür ein bisschen nach unten gedrückt und es war relativ wenig Ausdifferenzierung. Und das, denke ich, ist bei, wird dann bei längeren Texten nicht nicht besser oder die die KI nicht urteiltsicherer. Wenn wir schon bei dem Review Punkt sind, vielleicht eine letzte Frage dann noch. Nutzt ihr das auch so im im Plagiatskontext, so Plagiatsuntersuchungen bei Prüfungen oder so was? Ja, also Weil das ist ja auch immer son Wettrüsten gefühlt, dieses ganze Plagiatsthema. Mhm. Ja, Plagiate sind bei uns gar nicht mal son großes Thema auch in dem Jahr vor der KI nicht gewesen. Wir hatten vorhin ja gesagt, dieser Betreuungsrhythmus, dass man schaut, wie sich sone Arbeit entwickelt über die Kurz mal, hattet ihr das auch schon vor AI genauso gemacht? Dass wir diesen regelmäßigen 2 Wochenabschnitt. Ah, okay, okay. Also ein System, das das vorher schon gut war und jetzt halt da Genau. Rein zu fahren. Genau, jetzt vielleicht noch etwas konsequenter da nachzuverfolgen. Ja. Und jetzt auch grad bei dem Bachelorarbeiten ist bei uns im dualen Studium das Problem eigentlich auch nicht existent, weil die Arbeiten ja in Kooperation mit 'nem dualen Partner stattfinden, mit 'nem Unternehmen. Es ist dann ja meistens eine sehr spezifische Aufgabe Stimmt. Zu der man dann auch nichts kein keine Vorlage findet, die man plagiieren könnte. Mhm. Also von dem her ist es da nicht das ganz große Thema. Klar, im Grundlagenteil kann man das durchaus Ja, aber es rettet einen ja dann nicht. Also es kann's einem ja auch nur noch eine Hilfe sein im Prinzip. Genau. Okay. Aber das ist ja wichtiger Punkt, das duale, da haben wir noch gar nicht so groß drüber gesprochen. Es hilft euch bestimmt ja schon, hast Du am Anfang gesagt, son Einblick da reinzubekommen, so was passiert eigentlich gerade draußen am Markt? Wie wird da gearbeitet? Womit wird da gearbeitet? Was ist relevant und was nicht? Mhm. Gleichzeitig müsste ja trotzdem im Prinzip jetzt mit dem Curriculum Leute auf den Arbeitseinstieg in, Du hast wohl gesagt, so die frühen Mitte Dreißigerjahre im Prinzip vorbereiten. Mhm. Wie schafft ihr das da, sone Antizipation zu haben von dem, was da überhaupt gebraucht wird? Mhm. Mhm. Ja. Ja, also im Dualen vielleicht erst mal, die Frage zu beantworten, ist es natürlich dieses Spiel. Es kommt von draußen sicherlich Input, was dort grade genutzt wird. Zum anderen soll natürlich aber auch schon in die andere Richtung irgendwie die Idee sein, dass auch die Studierenden Ideen ins Unternehmen hineintragen. Ja, der 2. Teil deiner Frage, wie kann man das Ganze ja in gewisser Weise zukunftssicher machen? Ich denke da auch, ja, wir hatten's ja im Laufe des Gesprächs schon mehrfach erwähnt, mehr Konzepte und technologische Grundlagen als als jetzt Tool Wissen und zu aktuelle Dinge. Das ist natürlich gerade im KI Markt, im generativen KI Markt jetzt wahrscheinlich leichter gesagt als getan. Im im im klassischen Programmieren hatten wir auch diskutiert, Algorithmen, Datenstrukturen, das ist sicher, das das ist über Jahrzehnte das das gewachsen und und das ist, denke ich, Knowledge, was man auch in der Zukunft braucht. Im generativen KI Markt ist es natürlich dann auch, das natürlich alles sehr volatil. Und und diese diese Geschwindigkeit der der Entwicklung in den letzten Jahren, die ja macht die einem, lässt einen mit den Ohren schlackern bis hin, dass es einem auch ein bisschen Angst macht, was da so geschieht und entsprechend möglich ist. Dave, hast Du noch eine Frage? Ja, eine Letzt vielleicht, weil das noch gar nicht so sehr vorkam, bisschen Du hast grade so angeschnitten von wegen, na ja, wir wollen jetzt nicht auf irgendwie das neueste Tool springen und irgendwie den Hype und so mitnehmen. Ist es aber trotzdem etwas so quasi, hey, also dass man jetzt vielleicht sogar darüber nachdenkt, 'n neues Modul zu schaffen, so, Entwicklerkompetenz mit AI oder so, wo man das dann dediziert, sich irgendwie vielleicht wirklich ein Modul, ein Semester Zeit nimmt oder dass man in irgend einen bestimmten anderen Modul schon unterbringt so, hey, das ist beispielsweise Klo, das irgendwie Kodex oder so und damit mal dann irgendwie rantastet so, was kann generative AI eigentlich im Entwicklerkontext? Ist das etwas, was bei euch schon besteht oder wo ihr diskutiert, das irgendwie noch mal expliziter zu leben? Ja, also ich würde immer den den letzteren Weg gehen und sagen, das ist jetzt eben, wir haben ja eine Vorlesung Software Engineering, auch die gibt es Jahrzehnte und die hat sich ja auch bis 20 22 als der das die LLMs populär waren, immer weiterentwickelt. Da kamen ja auch neue Tools, neue Dinge hinzu und so weiter und dass da jetzt eben man nach wie vor auf aktuelle moderne Werkzeuge setzt und da gehören eben auch dann KI basierte Werkzeuge heutzutage dazu. Noch eine noch eine letzte Frage? Nein, nein, nein, nein. Ich hab noch eine letzte Frage, ganz eigene. Oh. Ich hab ja Glaub ich, bei dir studieren. Bitte. Nein. Als ich so überlegt hab, was ich alles studieren wollte, ne, und da hab ich mir auch son paar Probeveranstaltungen besucht für Informatik. Wann wann war das? Welches Jahrtausend? Dieses tatsächlich. Ah, okay. Dieses Ja, ich wusste auch tatsächlich. Und und was ich damals ehrlicherweise son bisschen abschreckend fand, als ich so in soner Probeninformatiklösung war, war so, mit mit welchen Sprachen da zum Beispiel einfach so gearbeitet wurde, ja. Was sind denn für euch heute so die gängigsten Lehrsprachen, die ihr benutzt in den meisten Vorlesungen? Mhm. Mhm. Ja, wir starten mit Java. Das ist schon deutlich besser als das c, was mir damals angeboten wurde. Robert. Ah, okay, krass. Ja, wobei auch da noch mal Konzept versus Öl Ja. Versus Sprache. Es ist uns wichtig, dass wir Grundlagen des objektorientierten und des prozeduralen imperativen Programmierens vermitteln. Dann ja c c plus plus und C-Sharp dot net Plattformen spielen natürlich auch eine Rolle, immer abhängig, wie Dozierende sind, welche Dozierenden da sind oder was da ist und natürlich jetzt gerade durch die KI Geschichte kommt man nicht an Python vorbei. Python halte ich im Übrigen als 1. Sprache, als Einstieg für nicht geeignet. Das ist mir ein Bedürfnis, das noch mal los zu machen. Aber ich muss sagen, als gute 2. Sprache finde ich. Also ich ich war sehr froh, mit Java anzufangen, weil's halt diese Konzepte von Objektorientierung und so was halt irgendwie sehr gut beigebracht hat. Aber dann Python war sehr, sehr angenehm, weil sobald man da son bisschen im Lauf war. Ich find, Python machst so Objektorientierung nicht so supergut, aber gut, ist ja ein anderes Thema, aber das fand ich da nicht so gut gelöst. Ja, das ist ja, das ist es, wenn man wenn man programmieren kann, auch im fortgeschrittenen Alter, das mal sagen zu dürfen. Ich hab ja noch mit mit Sprachen wie Modula 2, kennt ihr das überhaupt noch? Ihr jungen Biester. Nee, das ist Sonny gehört tatsächlich. Ah ja, das war tatsächlich neunzehnhundertneunzig herum eine populäre Sprache in der Ausbildung. Ja, und ja, wenn man wenn man dann programmieren kann und und verschiedene Sprachen hat, kommen und gehen sehen in der Vergangenheit, dann kommt man gerade da mit Python auch dieser Vielzahl an Bibliotheken einfach, ist ja einfach eigentlich alles da im Bereich KI, maschinelles Lernen, Datenpipelines aufbauen und so weiter. Ist ja nicht schlecht die Sprache, aber ich halt sie nicht als als Lehrsprache für Programmier, Anfängerinnen, Anfänger Ja. Für geeignet. Also ich bin voll bei dir zu sagen, die Sprache ist nicht das Allerentscheidende so, ja, sondern man muss halt die Konzepte damit lernen. Aber ich glaube schon, dass es halt gute Lehrsprachen gibt, die sich dadurch auszeichnen, dass sie einem viel ermöglichen, aber nicht viel abverlangen. Mhm. Man kann damit objektorientiert machen, man kann damit vielleicht auch funktional machen, man kann Multitreading machen, muss es aber vielleicht nicht, man kann parallel so, ja. Und da gibt's halt, glaub ich, einfach bessere oder schlechtere Kandidaten. Und ja, ich bin auch dabei, Python ist wahrscheinlich nicht ideale Einstiegssprache, so, ja. Aber c war's bei ihm ja damals auf gar keinen Fall. Das war auch nicht, das muss ich auch sagen. Ja. Okay, gut, ey, hab mich nur ganz, ganz persönliches interessiert, was da grade grade passiert. Und jetzt deine letzte Abschlussfrage, oder Jan? Willst Du sie stellen? Ja, und zwar also eine Frage, die wir gerne am Ende stellen. Und zwar Die macht auch nur am Ende Sinn. Die gibt ja auch nur am Ende Sinn so tatsächlich. Also sie ist perfekt platziert am Ende. Und zwar gibt es eine Frage, die Du dir gewünscht hättest, die wir dir stellen, die wir dich gefragt haben oder irgendetwas, dass Du einfach loswerden möchtest, dass Du hier noch mal rausschreien möchtest in die große Welt Außer dass Python keine gute 1. Sprache Genau, ja, genau. Das war doch eigentlich schon 'n ganz gutes Schluss. Also ich hatte son paar Punkte. Im Podcast soll's ja nicht alles vorgegeben sein. Es soll ja eine lockere Unterhaltung sein, aber son paar Punkte, die mir schon wichtig waren zu dem Thema. Ich denke, die haben wir eigentlich alle behandelt. Von dem her bin ich an der Stelle, wie man so schön sagt, vollumfänglich zufrieden. Geil, sehr schön. Das ist doch sehr cool. Wir auch und das wär auch fast 'n gutes Schlusswort, aber was haben wir am Ende immer noch, Dave? Das Schweinchen des Tages. Nein. Die. Ah, Piks of the day. Machen wir weiter mit dem nächsten Thema, mit deiner genialenüberleitung. Was ist dein Pick of the day? Mein Pick of the day ist vielleicht passend zu heute, weil's ja nicht nur Lehre ging, sondern auch AI. Und zwar, es ist also es ist kein großes Geheimnis und ist auch nicht so super Spezielles, aber tatsächlich ist mein die Codex App. Codex kennt ihr beide? Ja. Codex ist nämlich quasi die Anwendung von der als dann Oberfläche, dir zu helfen, mit deinem Agenten zu reden und Dinge auch durchaus so parallelisieren. Und dafür mag ich die wirklich sehr, sehr gerne, weil der deine ganzen Verzeichnisse direkt anzeigt und dann kannst Du da 'n neuen Chat aufmachen und dann sagen, hey, hier, arbeite mal jetzt daran und dann in 'nem anderen Ordner, arbeite jetzt an dem. Und das ist irgendwie, ich muss sagen, das hat jetzt so in letzter Zeit bei mir richtig reingeknallt. Vor allem also jetzt auch mit den neuen Modellen, Kodex Modellen 5 und 6, megagut. Und weil wir ja auch Backend und Frontend getrennt haben, das parallel zu entwickeln, das war dadurch superangenehm und smooth einfach, weil ich dann halt beides gleichzeitig mal konnte und dann halt quasi, hey, okay, nimmt das Frontend, das richtig auf, was das Backend macht und so. Und das fand ich sehr geil. Und mein persönliches Highlight und das ist das Wichtigste, man kann ja unten auch einstellen, wie stark der Thinking Prozess sein soll. Das ist son kleiner Slider, der so cool leuchtet und das Das ist wirklich, das ist coolste. Ich glaube, der sieht, na, wenn der wirklich schön aussieht. Das muss man sagen, es sieht wirklich schön aus. Ich benutze die Kodex App nicht, deswegen muss ich doof nachfragen. Ja. Weil Du gesagt hast, Du kannst da mehrere Sachen dann quasi auch parallel machen. Das heißt, unterstützt dir auch so und so was alles, im selben Repo quasi parallel unterschiedliche Ja. Das haben wir nicht eingerichtet so, also bei uns in unserem Projekt Projekt unterstützt. Genau, genau. Genau. Das ist noch nicht, aber genau das kann das. Und was ich halt aber auch gemacht habe, ist zum Beispiel, zum einen lohnt sich das halt Backend- und Frontendtrennung, weil wir das in 2 unterschiedlichen Projekten haben, dadurch sowieso. Aber gleichzeitig kannst Du auch sagen, hey, das mach ich jetzt grade lokal und Du lässt aber auch 'n Cloud Agent laufen, der das dann halt parallel noch mal 'n anderen Task machst. Und ich muss sagen, es war es war schon krass, was das fürn Productivity Boost war am Ende. Natürlich dann ist staut sich das auch so, okay, ist alles fertig und dann dann drüber schauen, ist noch mal eine andere Geschichte. Aber es ist ist wirklich cool. Es ist cool gemacht. Okay. Du bist irgendwie nicht so überzeugt beim heute. Also. Weil der so so Standard ist, richtig? Nee, also ich nutz die Kodex App nicht, deswegen weiß ich nicht, was da so in letzter Zeit passiert ist, aber gefühlt wär das ja so letztes Jahr son Pick of the day gewesen. Ja, ich weiß. Also schon Aber vielleicht einfach bisschen spät zu der Party. Ja, deswegen, ich hätte auch 'n anderen Big of the day, aber auch das ist so 5 Jahre alt, aber es ist halt so, weil's für mich Aktualität hat irgendwie. Ja, wenn Du damit grade zufrieden bist, ist ja wohl okay. Ich hab sie ja ganz Zeit nicht genutzt und jetzt nutzt die Kodex App und jetzt ist eben Ja, schön, da reden wir auch noch mal separat drüber. Aber mein Pick ist gleich noch älter, aber ich wollte erst Olaf fragen, ob er was dabeihat. Ich fass vielleicht noch mal zusammen. Grade wegen der KI lohnt es sich noch mal mehr, Informatik zu studieren. Da ist auch nichts hinzuzufügen, ja. Mein Pick of the day ist, kommt aus der, eigentlich so aus den Neunzigern vielleicht. Aha. Aber hat damit zu tun, dass Ach so, und warte, und kritisiert nicht meinen gestorben ist, vorbei. Sorry, ich bin da drüber gestolpert, als Sam Neil gestorben ist. Das wollt ich sagen. Wow, okay. So, Sam Neil, Schauspieler, Jurassic Park. Jo, hab ich letztens mitbekommen. Ja, und auch hier Jagd auf roter Oktober und so was alles. Aber Jurassic Park. Und wie immer, wenn so berühmte Schauspieler sterben, gibt's hier irgendwie Berichte darüber und hier und bla bla. Und da ist ein Blogartikel zu mir reingespült worden, den ich jetzt empfehlen möchte. Ich verlinken das in den Shownotes. Der ist aus den Neunzigern? Nein, der Blogartikel nicht, aber Jurassic Park ist aus den Neunzigern. Ah, okay. Der Blogartikel arbeitet quasi Jurassic Park ab und zwar jede Szene, in der Computervorkommen und nimmt sich quasi jeden dieser Computer vor und sagt so, hey, was war das eigentlich für eine Kiste und was läuft da grade drauf und in jedem Detail, also jedes Stück Hardware, was Du in diesem Film siehst, ist so quasi beschrieben, was natürlich auf der einen Seite heute son bisschen lächerlich wirkt mit, oh, der hatte irgendwie 2 Megabyte ran diese Kiste und die war ultrateuer und die haben sie extra von irgendwie Xerox gemietet für diese Szene Jurassic Park und bla bla bla. Aber das ist gar nicht das so, sondern er spricht halt auch so in dem Blogartikel darüber so, was ist das fürn UI, ne, wieso war das damals so State of the Art, was hat man sich dabei gedacht? Und das fand ich einfach eine sehr coole Art irgendwie Kulturgut aufzuarbeiten vielleicht, ja. Und wer son bisschen sich für so was interessiert oder einfach 'n Jurassic Park Fan ist oder einfach noch mal ans Daniele denken möchte, keine Ahnung, kannst dir diesen Blogartikel gerne mal angucken. Wir verlinken den. Es macht Spaß zu lesen. Er ist 'n bisschen lang, weil in Jurassic Park viele Computer vorkommen, wer hätte das gedacht. Ja. Aber es macht Spaß. Aber es ist schon interessant, auch sone Reise durch die Zeit dann wirklich. So ist irgendwie so, was war damals eigentlich so das Ding? Find ich auch wahnsinnig interessant. Hier irgendwann bei meinen Eltern hab ich vor Jahren auch noch damals irgendwie son alten Mediamarkt hier so sone Zeitungsbroschüre gesehen, wo son 64 Megabyte USB Stick für 200 Euro oder so beworben wurde. Und dann dacht so, alter, ist das krass. Und das ist, wenn man das aus heutiger Objektive betrachtet, immer dann sehr interessant, wie es dann vor 8 Jahren Weil Du grade, weil Du 200 Euro gesagt hast, also inzwischen gehen's ja wiederholt, die Speicherpreise. Mhm. Hier ist Steven Spielberg und so, ist ja auch dafür bekannt, dass sie quasi nur realistische Effekte haben wollten und alles, ja cool. Und alle diese Computer waren halt auch echt, so. Das heißt, nicht so wie bei manchen anderen Science Fiction Filmen irgendwie viel Sperrholz und Plastik und LEDs irgendwie zusammengetackert. Und am Ende macht er in dem Blogartikel auch sone Rechnung auf, was all diese Kisten quasi damals gekostet haben zusammen und was sie quasi heute äquivalent kosten würden, Inflationsbereich, ist auch abgefahren. Ja, saß da, saß da, saß da, was da dem Betrag? Ich weiß nicht, ob ich gerade sagen hab, aber was waren Sechsstellig, siebenstellig. Sehr hoch, sechsstellig und heute sehr hoch siebenstellig, sag ich. Ja, ja, ja, krass. Nee. Gut. Das war mein Beitrag für heute. Sehr cool. Also durch die Vergangenheit. Wunderbar. Damit auf jeden Fall danke Olaf Ja. Für die Zeit, dass Du extra hergekommen bist, so ins Studio für das Gespräch. Bin gern gekommen, bedanke mich für die Einladung. Das hat sich auf jeden Fall gelohnt. Das es war auch richtig cool, mal wieder hier alle im Studio zu sein, dass irgendwie von anderen Ich mag das Ich mag das sehr gerne. Die meisten Gäste schaffen das ja nicht zeitlich oder von der Distanz her vorbeizuschauen. Von daher wissen wir das super zu schätzen. Danke Dave, dass Du dabei warst. Danke für alle, die zugehört, zugeschaut haben. Wir hoffen, es hat euch geholfen. Vielleicht die Entscheidung für den Informatikstudiengang zu treffen, vielleicht, wenn ihr schon in der Informatikseite noch mal son bisschen Noch Motivation noch mal raus rauszuholen oder wenn ihr wie Dave und ich schon bisschen länger drin setzt, also boah, ist ja alles 'n bisschen anders als es bei mir früher vielleicht war. Kann man ja auch mal 'n bisschen wertschätzen. Wunderbar und damit bleibt uns nichts anderes sagen als bis bald und wir hören, sehen, sprechen uns nächste Woche. Nächste Woche. Macht's gut. Tschau. 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0: Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem neuen Deep Dive hier in der Programmierbar für euch aus dem Studio in Badnauheim, hier am Start der Janen Gregor im Getriebe und mit mir im Studio.\n\nSpeaker 1: Der Dave aka David Krusitzky. Moin, was geht?\n\nSpeaker 0: Schön, dass Du da bist, Dave. Wir haben heute ein Thema, mit dem ich quasi gar nicht so viel am Hut hab, denn wir wollen heute über das Informatikstudium sprechen und wir vielleicht längere Hörerinnen schon wissen, ich hab kein Informatikstudium\n\nSpeaker 1: in der Tasche. Das ist schon krass. Also ne, man muss überlegen, was das mit unserer Kredibilität macht, dass Du als quasi fast Haupthost kein Informatik Background hast.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mein Lebensmotto ist. Ja, aber\n\nSpeaker 1: es zeigt ja auch, wie weltoffen wir hier sind bei der Programmierwahl. Das ist ja auch vielleicht eigentlich was Schönes.\n\nSpeaker 0: Auch für Quereinsteiger geöffnet in der in der Programmierwahl. Genau. Dave hat immerhin ein Studium hinter sich, sogar anderthalb sozusagen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, 2 sogar, oder? Oder soll man mit anderthalb. Ach so, mein Master nur eine Hälfte zählt?\n\nSpeaker 0: Nein, Du hast hast Du nicht vorher was anderes? Ah ja,\n\nSpeaker 1: ja, ja, okay, darüber reden wir nicht. Ja. Was kommt denn in 'nem Special mal vor? Ja, ja, stimmt. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Dave verliert. Aber weil das bei uns allen auch schon son bisschen länger her ist, haben wir uns noch einen Gast eingeladen. Wir haben nämlich heute auch dabei, den Professor Olaf Verden. Hallo Olaf, schön, dass Du da bist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, hallo, vielen Dank für die Einladung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir wollten nämlich mit jemandem über das Informatikstudium sprechen, der tatsächlich jeden Tag damit zu tun hat und nicht, wie Dave und ich das letzte Mal eine Uni von innen gesehen hat vor 15 Jahren oder so.\n\nSpeaker 1: 15? Bei mir, oh nee, 2021 war's, glaub ich. Meine letzte Vorlesung war 2021 tatsächlich und dann für die Abschlussarbeit bin ich aber noch mal hingegangen, 2022, also Bist\n\nSpeaker 0: halt 'n bisschen jünger als\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, 'n bisschen jünger. 15 Jahre ist es aber nicht bei dir her, oder? Na ja, doch. Schade. Ich hinterfrag halt, wie alt Du bist.\n\nSorry, okay, tut gar nichts Thema.\n\nSpeaker 0: Olaf, wir haben dich eingeladen, weil wir uns kennengelernt haben auf der Deflan Konferenz, wo Du einen Vortrag gehalten hast. Wenn Du nicht über die Kongresse dieser Welt hingelst, bist Du eigentlich an der DHBW Professor und Lehrster und bist sogar Studiengangsleitung. Hast Du mir gar nicht erzählt, hab ich da auf deine Internetseite gesehen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, das bin ich in der Tat. Seit 2002 bin ich an der DHBW am Campus Hopp tätig und seit 2006 2007 auch Studiengangsleiter für, ja, zunächst hieß es angewandte Informatik und inzwischen heißt der Studiengang dann nur noch Informatik.\n\nSpeaker 0: Damit bist Du der perfekte Kandidat, heute über das Thema zu sprechen. Wir wollen nämlich darüber sprechen, wie sich der Studiengang gewandelt hat beziehungsweise gerade dabei ist zu wandeln und welchen Einfluss künstlicher Intelligenz darauf hat\n\nSpeaker 2: und\n\nSpeaker 0: darüber wollen wir einmal sprechen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Kurz noch mal kurz noch mal vielleicht zur Aufgabe zum Studigangsleiter. Du gestaltest ja auch aktiv das Curriculum mit und was alles in 'nem Studiengang dran an Themen vorkommt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, das ist so richtig, genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay, dann dann ist es ja perfekt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie immer die Gäste bei uns, einfach ein 1 perfekter Witze. Olaf wird's grad 'n bisschen unangenehm. Ich weiß schon, wir legen die Latte immer höher.\n\nSpeaker 1: Also, ich wär das 1. Mal Profi in der Premiere. Ja, wunderbar.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, wunderbar. Vielleicht zum Einstieg, ich kann mir vorstellen, dass wir dieses Gespräch so in 3 Teile aufteilen. Ich glaub, der 1. Teil ist son bisschen darüber zu sprechen, mit welcher vielleicht veränderten Erwartungshaltung, Einstellungen im Moment studierende, junge Menschen an die Uni kommen, was sich da geändert hat. Dann vielleicht auch, wie sich der Studiengang selbst geändert hat, wie sich Lehre geändert hat, wie sich Prüfungen geändert haben, wie man veränderten Realitäten einfach gerecht werden kann und am Ende vielleicht noch mit 'nem ganz kleinen Teil son Ausblick darauf geben, grade mit modernen Bachelorstudiengängen will ja Uni auch immer berufsvorbereiten sein und welchen Realitäten man sich denn da jetzt stellen muss, wenn sich das Berufsfeld grade so sehr ändert, wie die Uni darauf eben auch reagieren kann, muss oder eben vielleicht auch nicht, so.\n\nMeine 1. Frage vielleicht gleich son bisschen überspitzt formuliert zum Anfang ist, kommt über heute kommt heute überhaupt noch jemand zum Informatikstudium?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, in der Tat eine spannende Frage. Es ist im Moment schon ein bisschen schwierig. Die Schülerinnen, Schüler, die grundsätzlich sich dafür interessieren, sind schon auch 'n Stück weit verunsichert. Das ist getrieben durch auch einige Aussagen in der Presse, dass ja, ich sag da auch mal jetzt überspitzt, die Informatik schafft sich selber ab. Wir haben irgendwie eine gewisse Menge Tools und Techniken geschaffen und die verselbstständigt sich jetzt und übernehmen dann zukünftig die Softwareentwicklung.\n\nDas, denke ich, ist keineswegs der Fall. Das, was da eben KI generative KI heute kann, ist ja gewissen Code umsetzen, den auf vielleicht einen gewissen Style überprüfen, gewisse Tests durchführen und so weiter, aber den großen Überblick, das Big Picture über die Gesamtarchitektur, über die Systeme, das ist etwas, was schon noch immer personengesteuert sein muss und auch, ich denke, auch dauerhaft sein wird. Also irgendwie son Human Insel Loop Ansatz, der dort entsprechend verfolgt wird. Ebenso muss natürlich abgeschätzt werden können, wo ist der KI Einsatz sinnvoll und wo ist er das auch nicht? Wo wo sind Grenzen?\n\nAuch das ist eine wichtige Aufgabe, die auch in Zukunft Informatikerinnen und Informatiker\n\nSpeaker 0: umsetzen müssen. Vielleicht da einmal kurz nachzuhaken. Das ist ja eigentlich vielleicht nur eine Erweiterung von dem, was wir ganz lange in der Pädagogik so Medienkompetenz genannt haben, ne, auch einfach zu wissen, wann kann man soner Maschine 1 anonymen Quelle irgendwie vertrauen, wann muss man selber 'n bisschen hinterfragen, man muss dann selber 'n bisschen Hirn noch anwenden. Wie wie kompetent kommen da Leute im Moment von der Schule zu euch?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Wirkt erst mal nicht über die\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, die kommen. Na ja, ja, ja. Und sind\n\nSpeaker 1: auch ganz schnell wieder weg.\n\nSpeaker 2: Das ist 'n anderes Thema. Ja, es ist in der Tat so, dass im Bereich Informatik auch immer noch Studienanfänger zu uns kommen und auch zu anderen Hochschulen, Universitäten mit auch falschen Erwartungshaltung oder falschen Vorstellungen. Irgendwie ich kann alles an meinem Handy machen\n\nSpeaker 1: oder\n\nSpeaker 2: ich bin, ja, kann ich hier bei 'ner beim Unternehmen, das Spielesoftware herstellt, kaum sagen, aber jemand, der besonders gut in Computergames ist, das ist noch kein Alleinstellungsmerkmal und Skill, unbedingt Das kannst Du auch hier gerne sagen, zu studieren und so weiter. Und das war jetzt aber alles gar nicht die Frage. Die Frage war die die die die Medienkompetenz, die ja, das das auch kritische Reflektieren und so weiter, was auch 'n ganz zentraler Skill ist. Der ist stark unterschiedlich ausgeprägt, kann man einfach nur sagen bei den Studienanfängerinnen und Anfängern.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wie eigentlich auch in 'nem in der Durchschnitt der Bevölkerung, ne, muss man ja auch sagen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Genau. Ja, den Gedanken davor noch mal abzuschließen, was müssen Informatikerin, Informatik in der Zukunft auch noch tun? Die ganzen KI Systeme funktionieren ja nicht alle irgendwie. Dass das irgendwo in USA oder China ja konfektioniert wird und dann immer zur Verfügung steht.\n\nDas muss ja auch irgendwo ja individuell zum Beispiel nachtrainiert werden oder irgendwie aus einzelnen Komponenten ein KI System zusammengestöpselt werden, was dann auch passgenau ist fürs eigene Team, Unternehmen oder Umfeld. Das wären so die inhaltlichen, fachlichen Gründe, warum sich 'n Informatikstudium immer noch lohnt und es gibt auch noch mal handfeste ökonomische Gründe. Zum einen gibt's immer noch 'n riesen Fachkräftemangel, ja, je nachdem, wer die Studie durchgeführt hat und wie man zählt, aber\n\nSpeaker 1: Und was Fachkraft heißt, Ja. Fachkräftemangel.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, genau, ja. Aber Bitkom spricht immer noch von ungefähr 100000 fehlenden Fachkräften in in Deutschland, Wenn dann 'n paar weniger Informatiker, Informatikerin benötigt werden in der Zukunft, kann man vielleicht diese Lücke da auch entsprechend gut schließen. Dann ist es so, dass im Moment im gesamten technischen Umfeld durch die Konjunktur, insbesondere die Probleme in der Automobilbranche als ja der Branche in in Deutschland es gewisse Schwierigkeiten gibt, den Berufseinstieg gut zu meistern. Das wird ja aber auch wieder vergehen. Das wird auch wieder besser werden die Zeiten.\n\nUnd 'n weiterer letzter Punkt dazu ist noch, wer jetzt sein Studium aufnimmt diesen oder nächsten Herbst, der wird ja dem Arbeitsmarkt dann erst zu Beginn bis Mitte der Dreißigerjahre zur Verfügung stehen und da laufen wir ja in eine riesen Verrentungswelle in Deutschland hinein. Ab 20 29 gehen die starken Boomer Jahrgänge dann langsam in Rente sukzessive und ich denke, gerade im IT Bereich ist das vielleicht noch mal machen dann machen dann dort entsprechende Stellen frei.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Kurze Frage, zu welcher Generation an Informatik gehörst Du? Achtzigerjahre, Neunzigerjahre, Zweitausender?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich hab 89 angefangen zu studieren. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Deine Altersfrage am Anfang zu machen, da bin ich grade geboren worden.\n\nSpeaker 1: 89? Ah, okay, crazy, crazy, okay. Ja, son ist 'n Dreigeneration Treff hier.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Du hast eingangs auch gesagt, dass man schon merkt, dass jetzt weniger Leute kommen grade so, ja. Ist das eher ein generelles Zurücktreten von Informatik als Ganzes oder ist das eher ein, ich weiche vielleicht aus auf so was wie Wirtschaftsinformatik, Medieninformatik, wo ich glaube, dass der menschliche Faktor vielleicht noch 'n bisschen stärker ausgespielt werden kann versus der klassischen reinen Informatik? Ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Nein, also ich denke, der Trend ist ist da gleich, also zumindest bei uns an der Hochschule, Wirtschaftsinformatik haben wir auch im im Angebot und die Kolleginnen und Kollegen dort haben ähnliche Entwicklungen bei den Anfängerzahlen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay, okay. Mich würd mich würd grad noch mal interessieren, weil wir jetzt ja auch gerade so am Anfang gesagt haben, son bisschen die die Sorgen der Studierenden, ne, grade auch so durch die Medien, kennzeichnet, oh, Informatik schafft sich selbst ab und wir benötigen das in der Zukunft nicht mehr so stark. Gibt es aber vielleicht auch die umgekehrte Seite, wo sich Leute jetzt vielleicht nachm Abi so sehr fühlen und sagen so, oh, jetzt gibt ja AI, ich mach jetzt dieses Informatikstudio mit links und dann vielleicht auf da noch mal auch falsche Erwartungen dann treffen zu Beginn?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ist mir jetzt nicht in größerer Zahl begegnet. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das sind vielleicht aber auch nicht die, die das so propagieren, ne. Also die gehen ja vielleicht jetzt nicht in die 1. Vorlesung und sagen so, also, das mach ich alles mit links.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Aber nee, aber so ist vielleicht nicht nur Informatik selbst, aber so generell, dass Leute sich das eher noch mal zutrauen, so von wegen, hey, ich hab jetzt die riesige Hilfe dadurch so. Son Studium schaff ich jetzt noch mal einfacher. Nach sonem Gedanken, den ich jetzt auch hatte, so, neben dem Beruf noch mal 'n Studium machen, weil mit der AI kann ich's ja easy. Aber sei mal dahingestellt, wie gut das funktioniert.\n\nJa.\n\nSpeaker 2: Was ich denke, was wichtig ist nach wie vor, also abgeleitet aus der Argumentation von eben, warum sich's noch lohnt, was was benötigen zukünftige Informatikerin, Informatikern Skills? Ich denke, dass gerade im technischen Kernbereich, ja, sehr gutes, sehr tiefes technisches Wissen notwendig sein wird, auch in der Zukunft über Programmierung, über Software, Datenbanken, Netzwerk, Betriebssysteme. Ja, eigentlich den ganzen Stack hoch und runter wird man einfach auch die Komplexität entsprechend erfassen müssen und auch immer diesen kommunikativen Weg vom, ja, vom Problem zum Programm, der alte Spruch. Was, da hat irgendjemand eine Idee hier bei euch, oh, da könnte man vielleicht mal 'n Game machen oder da könnte man irgendwie eine andere Welt erschaffen oder Ähnliches. Das ist ja manchmal etwas unscharf noch die anfängliche Idee.\n\nDas erst mal zu fokussieren, zu ordnen, dann schließlich runterzubrechen, dann irgendwann mal prototypisch umzusetzen und dann zu schauen, trägt das auch dauerhaft? Macht das überhaupt Sinn? Das denke ich, ist ist nach wie vor sind so die zentralen fachlichen Skills, die dann natürlich jetzt auch angereichert werden, zusätzliche KI Skills. Denkt der Informatiker, die Informatikerin muss da wirklich auch in den KI Verfahren, ja, den berühmten Blick unter die Haube haben und sehr tiefes Wissen drüber haben. Einfaches Beispiel, es gibt irgendein Dataset aus 'ner Fachabteilung und da soll klassifiziert werden.\n\nDa wer ein bisschen geschickt den prompt formuliert, kriegt auch ohne Programmierkenntnisse schnell ein Resultat. Aber ja, was heißt das jetzt, wenn da irgendein Score kommt, irgendeine Metrik, die diese Klassifikation beschreibt oder ist ein bestimmtes Verfahren überhaupt auf diesem Dataset angemessen anwendbar oder nicht und Ähnliches. Das sind dann alles, denke ich, Fragestellungen, bei denen sich dann schon die die tiefe Fachexpertise immer noch auch in der Zukunft abheben wird vom allgemeinen Vibecoder.\n\nSpeaker 1: Kurz da noch mal nachgehackt, von wegen Fachexpertise. Das klang aber für mich jetzt weniger nach 'ner technischen Tiefe, die da verlangt wird, sondern eher vielleicht mehr spezifischer Domainwissen, weil Du gesagt hast so, irgendwie man muss wissen so, ist das Datenset dafür geeignet oder wie interpretiert man die Daten und so, dass es also eigentlich gar nicht so dieses Technische ist, was da relevant ist, sondern viel mehr doch diese Domäne, was auch Jan grad am Anfang meinte, so von wegen diese Bindestrichinformatiker, so haben wir die immer genannt. Erst lass nicht da. Und ein Professor auch immer, die Bindestrichinformatiker gehatet. Da sind sie auch keine richtigen Informatiker.\n\nIch war so 1 zum Beispiel. Ja. Nee, aber genau, also dass eher dieses Domainwissen wichtig ist, aber gar nicht mehr dieses technische Tiefe.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, ich\n\nSpeaker 2: denke ich denk beides. Also auch die technische Tiefe, wie funktioniert der Algorithmus oder auch Dinge an 'nem Dataset, die unabhängig von der Domäne sind, wenn zum Beispiel Daten sehr ungleich verteilt sind, was ich ja gerade bei Klassifikationsproblemen sehr, sehr häufig habe, ja, dass man einfach versteht, was dort entsprechend abläuft. Aber da gebe ich dir recht, auch das Domänenwissen beziehungsweise auch die Bereitschaft, kommunikativ zu sein, auch gegenüber dann den Anwenderinnen und Anwendern insbesondere. Das wird auch 'n zunehmender Skill sein, denn wenn es dann darum geht, KI Systeme zu bauen, dann kommt ja jeder, da kommt irgendwie HR und will damit Bewerbungsverfahren optimieren, im Marketing sowieso, im Kundenservice will man den idealen Chatbot haben und ja vielleicht am Ende muss man's auch noch den Manager erklären, das ist vielleicht dann die schwerste Aufgabe, der war am Abend vorher im Rotary Club und alle Kumpels oder nee, wie heißen die im Rotary Club, Rotary Brüder, ich weiß es nicht. Ja.\n\nBin ich dann. Wir haben gesagt, oh, wir machen KI und das ist das tolle Ding und so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das brauchen wir jetzt auch.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und der, ja bevor man jetzt dieses, ja was ist das, Fear of Missing Out Fomo, nicht. Dieser Effekt tritt dann auch da ein und sagt, das brauchen wir auch, machen Sie mal. Ist egal was, aber machen Sie mal. Und da vielleicht auch mal sagen, ja gut, es muss aber auch sinnvoll sein und der Use Case muss irgendwie da sein. Ich denke auch das ist ein wichtiger Punkt.\n\nUnd damit vielleicht auch noch mal, ich hatte eben son paar fachliche Kenntnisse gesagt, ich denke auch nach wie vor die ganzen Soft Skills, auch wenn's jetzt vielleicht 'n bisschen abgenudelt klingt, wie Selbstorganisation, Teamfähigkeit, ja, kritisches Denken hinterfragen. Ja, gerade kritisches Denken ist ja wichtig, was da generiert worden ist. Ist das denn überhaupt plausibel? Ist es verantwortbar, dass wir das jetzt produktiv nehmen und so weiter? Reflexion damit eng verbunden, die gelten nach wie vor wieder und die werden, ja, ich denke, der Job wird dort, grade auch das wieder auf deine Frage zum Domainwissen wird entsprechend dann noch kommunikativer als er schon ist oder in den in der Vergangenheit war und eben angereichert dieses KI Wissen, wie gesagt, man ist der der Vermittler, der Experte im Unternehmen hatte ich grad schon angedeutet und auch da ganz ganz wichtiger Skill, ja dieser ganze Bereich, ich nenne ihn mal Ethik und Dokumentation Compliance Automatisieren.\n\nJa Compliance Regeln, ist das ethisch verantwortbar? Mhm. Wie sieht's mitm Urheberrecht aus? Kann man da alles problemlos irgendwie reinwerfen? Ja, Datenschutz, KI Regulierung, branchenspezifische Einschränkungen und so weiter gibt's ja auch, dass da gewisse Dinge in zum Beispiel ja, im sicherheitskritischen Bereich, die wird man zum Beispiel nicht in in öffentlichen Systemen hochladen wollen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Von den ganzen Fragen, die Du gerade oder die ganzen Punkte, die Du gerade genannt hast, sind ja manche eigentlich auch schon altbekannt, ja, also Dokumentationen, bisschen ethisches Hinterfragen, das haben wir auch bei anderen Technologien schon gesehen, ja. Manches ist vielleicht jetzt 'n bisschen neuer und da würde mich interessieren, wie findet das so seinen Weg in das Curriculum bei euch? Ja, also der KI Boom, den wir so aktuell sehen, der hat ja vielleicht so angefangen, ich sag mal, 21, 22, da gab's so frühe GPT Modelle, da haben das son paar Insider immer noch so vor sich hin benutzt. Da wart ihr ja wahrscheinlich nicht die Ersten, die gesagt haben, boah, das wird in 5 Jahren richtig groß, lasst uns mal die ganzen Curriculum umschreiben, damit wir denn darauf vorbereitet. Also, weil man darf ja auch nicht auf jeden Hype zu früh aufspringen, ja.\n\nAlso ich kann mir vorstellen, wenn ihr 'n paar Jahre vorher auf dem Blockchain Hype drauf gesprungen wärt, ja, das hätte vielleicht nicht so gut funktioniert. Und und wie findet sone Abwägung statt? Also was dann konkret passiert, können wir gerne danach noch mal drüber sprechen, aber überhaupt, wie wie kommt dieser 1. Impuls überhaupt erst mal zustande und zu sagen so, oh, da ist was, das sollten wir uns vielleicht noch mal dediziert anschauen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, man muss erst mal selber die grad genannten Skills anwenden und zwar in dem Fall auch die die die Reflexion. Ist das überhaupt so relevant, dass man darauf reagieren muss? Du hast die Blockchain genannt und ja, da gab's ja genug Buzzwords in der IT in den letzten 20 Jahren, wenn man da\n\nSpeaker 1: Jeden Monat ein neues eigentlich.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ja, genau. Wenn man da jedes Mal das Curriculum angepasst hätte, ja, das das wär ja gar nicht handhabbar gewesen und ja, ich denke, das ist erst mal der 1. Schritt, dass man das wahrnimmt und nicht abtut, gerade auch bei der generativen KI. Das ist schon, ja, es wird ja allzu oft gesagt, das ist disruptiv, was da kommt. Ich denke, hier ist das wirklich gerechtfertigt, das Adjektiv zu benutzen, denn ja, im Gegensatz zu allen anderen Entwicklungen jetzt auch gerade in in der Softwareentwicklung und und und Hilfen, die man dort gehabt hat an an an Tools, an an an Case Werkzeugengeneratoren und so weiter, geht's ja schon noch mal darüber hinauf.\n\nEs ist ja nicht deterministischer Output, was bei rauskommt. Das ist ja im im im sonst im Entwicklungswerkzeug nicht. Wenn ich 'n AR Schema reinwerfe und der spuckt mir 'n SQL Skript aus, das geht gemäß 1 Algorithmus. Das ist nachvollziehbar, das kann ich dann auch, wenn der Algorithmus korrekt implementiert ist, sagen, das ist korrekt und guten Gewissens freigeben und das ist ja bei den generativen Systemen anders. Da geben ja unterschiedliche Systeme oder das gleiche System zu verschiedenen Zeitpunkten verschiedene Lösungen raus und das und und ist in der Lage, dann ja auch irgendwie noch mal nachzubessern, wenn man sagt, so so war's nicht, so ist es nicht.\n\nUnd da liegen die Systeme ja unwahrscheinlich zu, finde ich. Das war ja anfangs ja, in den ersten Versionen hat er ja mehr oder weniger auf seine Meinung bestanden. Dann kam umgekehrt, dass es bisschen sehr schleimig wurde und klar wird, ja, da hast Du natürlich recht. Da sind dann ja auch jeder Antwort. Ja, sind dann ja auch Dinge viral gegangen.\n\nDa sollte irgendwie 2 plus 2 berechnen. Und wenn man lang genug sagt, das ist aber 5, hat er irgendwann gesagt, jo, hast recht. Ich mach genauen Analysen ist es halt so. Ja, damit muss man ja auch 'n Stück weit, ja, umgehen und das auch entsprechend bestellen. Also ich denke, das ist die die Berechtigung, dass da schon was hinter steckt, dass wir da entsprechend was tun müssen.\n\nJa, wo passen wir das an? Ich denke, in den Die die gängigen Werkzeuge werden natürlich verwendet. Bei uns im dualen Studium dann auch noch mal unterschiedlich, wie stark das schon den jeweiligen Unternehmen entsprechend betrieben wird. Und ja, und dann versuchen wir eben auch die das dann im Curriculum entsprechend einfließen zu lassen, zum Beispiel indem weitere originäre KI Vorlesungen veranstaltet werden oder indem es eben Einzug erhält in in andere Vorlesungen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie oft wird denn das Curriculum so angepasst, jetzt unabhängig von AI oder oder nicht AI? Ist das was, was ihr euch wirklich so jedes Jahr wieder anschaut oder ist das son son Ich hab ja also Ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Einmal jedes Jahrtausend.\n\nSpeaker 2: Na oder ist das mehr so Impuls getrieben irgendwo dazwischen, die funktioniert Also es ist ungefähr alle 7 Jahre 'n großer Akkreditierungszyklus, dass also wirklich die ganze Geschichte überarbeitet wird, auch noch mal reflektiert wird, ob das Studienmodell so noch passend ist oder dann auch größere Veränderungen entsprechend vorgenommen werden. Und das wär natürlich sehr schwierig, wenn man dann sagt, ja, das ist jetzt akkreditiert und in 7 Jahren gucken wir mal, was da noch von der KI zum Beispiel geblieben ist. Ja. Deswegen im Kleineren können dann natürlich auch einzelne neue Module entsprechend definiert werden oder innerhalb bestehender Module dann auch Änderungen und Anpassungen vorgenommen werden. Also jetzt zum Beispiel im Software Engineering entsprechende KI generative KI Werkzeuge einsetzt, das das bedarf natürlich keiner Curriculumsänderung.\n\nDas steht ja wahrscheinlich auch in der Modulbeschreibung, ich hab's jetzt nicht den den genauen Wortlaut, aber steht ja wahrscheinlich unter Einsatz moderner Werkzeuge und das entscheidet dann der Dozent oder die Dozentin, was an der Stelle modern ist.\n\nSpeaker 0: Es gibt ja so mehrere Dimensionen davon, wie sich KI quasi niederschlagen kann bei euch den Alltag. Das eine ist über den Lehrplan inhaltlich, ja, wir sprechen darüber, wie neuronale zu funktionieren, wie Transformer funktionieren, was Pre Training ist, was Post Training ist und so weiter. Das andere ist wahrscheinlich auch, wie Studierende selbst KI Tools nutzen können, dürfen, sollen. Mhm. Dann wahrscheinlich aber auch, wie das in Prüfungssituationen auszusehen hat und ja wahrscheinlich aber auch, wie das auf eurer Seite aussieht.\n\nAlso auch für Lehrende ist ja die Frage so, wie kann ich das nicht für mich selbst auch irgendwie nutzen, Material zu erstellen, Prüfungsszenarien zu, also weiß nicht, aber das sind so, glaube ich, die die Punkte, wo es überall relevant werden kann, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, natürlich.\n\nSpeaker 1: Prüfung korrigieren, automatisieren. Ich les mir das nicht mehr durch.\n\nSpeaker 0: Na ja, ich glaube, Du hast das tatsächlich in in der Informatik noch 'n bisschen vielleicht weiter weg, weil die ein oder anderen Prüfungen ja vielleicht binärer sind als in anderen Fächern. Aber wenn Du jetzt vorstellst, ich hab ja Politikwissenschaft studiert Stimmt. Und da muss halt wirklich lange Essays und Präsentationen und so was halten, also Jetzt lesen\n\nSpeaker 1: wir den Scheiß nicht mehr durch.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich kann mir durchaus von meinen alten Professoren den ein oder anderen Vorstell, der sagt so, ja, ChatGPT, sagen wir mal, wie sah das denn hier bei dem Jan aus und hat er irgendwie die Aufgabenstellung erfüllt oder so was dann?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, davor war das irgend 'n Mitarbeiter, heute ist es ChatGPT, ja. Ja, wofür gibt's\n\nSpeaker 0: halt studentische Hilfskräfte, ja. Ja,\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Also Prüfungsformate insbesondere, das ist schon auch 'n Punkt, der aktuell sehr stark diskutiert wird bei uns, weil ja manche Dinge, die jetzt über die letzten Jahrzehnte, kann man schon fast sagen, Routine geworden sind, eben nicht mehr funktionieren. Also ich möchte gern mal die Prüfungsdinge in so 3 Kategorien einteilen. Das 1. Sind die normalen Module, die als offener Vorlesung entsprechend basieren.\n\nDa denke ich, ist am Ende die Prüfungsform ja, die klassische Klausur wird da eine Renaissance erleben. Das ist jetzt vielleicht auch nicht besonders populär oder pädagogisch modern. In den letzten Jahren hat man ja eher versucht, so semesterbegleitende Prüfungsformen zu etablieren oder irgendwie kombinierte Prüfungsleistungen oder Ähnliches. Da denke ich, wird eher wieder der Switch zurück zur klassischen Klausur oder zur mündlichen Prüfung Ja. Kommen.\n\nBeide mit verschiedenen Vor- und Nachteilen, die die ja bekannt sind. Also das ist denke ich, das ist so das das klassische Modul. Ja dann haben wir ja die Dinge, wo praktisch gearbeitet wird. Das heißt in der Informatik am Anfang typischerweise die Programmierübungen und und in in Datenbanken noch der Einstieg in SQL eigentlich klassischerweise. Da wird, da funktioniert's natürlich nicht mehr, dass man wöchentlich 'n Aufgabenblatt hat und gerade in in soner Anfängervorlesung ist man ja, hat man ja deutlich überschaubare Schemagröße oder Schwierigkeitsgrad der Programmieraufgabe.\n\nDa machen heutige, ja, allgemeine, öffentlich zugängliche LLM Systeme, sind sie sehr, sehr nah an den 100 Prozent dran, die sie dort einfach lösen. Das heißt, dort müssen wir irgendwie uns dann die Lösung noch mal präsentieren lassen, erklären lassen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Vielleicht auch da gar nicht so was Neues. Also waren's vorhin ja schon in den Neunzigerjahren. Ich hab in Oldenburg studiert. Da habe ich selber als Student und ich war dann später auch Tutor in der Programmiervorlesung.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ist in Niedersachsen Oldenburg, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, ich kenn mich aus Geografiefeister. Genau. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Da da hat er's Korrektur in Anwesenheit genannt, dass dann wöchentlich Aufgaben abgegeben wurden und so stichprobenartig hat man dann sone Zweiergruppe mal befragt, wo's damit Das haben\n\nSpeaker 0: wir in\n\nSpeaker 1: der Oberstufe auch schon gemacht,\n\nSpeaker 0: das fand ich immer gut.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ach nee, ich hatte es im Studium auch. Genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder das\n\nSpeaker 1: ganze Anttestator oder sollen wir das genannt, irgendwie bevor Du überhaupt zugelassen wirst zu irgendeiner prüfen\n\nSpeaker 0: oder so.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, genau. Also das wird man schon noch da an der Stelle verstärken verstärken müssen, diese diese nach, also die die Erklärungen, was ja Antestate, kleines Kolloquium, Erklärung, Nachfrage und so weiter. Das denke ich, wird bei diesen Laborarbeiten verstärkt. Wir hatten\n\nSpeaker 0: ja vor 2 Wochen, also wir haben ja ab und zu immer mal hier Studenten auch zu Gast. Stimmt. Vor 2 Wochen war wieder von der TM in Gießen eine Gruppe hier.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, Friedberg. Friedberg war das?\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, stimmt, Die hab ich auch son bisschen gefragt, wie ist bei denen alles so ändert? Ich dachte, ich bereite mich schon mal hier so inhaltlich diese Folge vor. Gut, ja. Die haben mir auch erzählt, ja, manchmal muss ich mich auch vorbereiten. Und die haben mir erzählt, dass sie jetzt als Prüfungsformat auch neu eingeführt haben für alles, was haben für alles, was eigentlich so länger laufende Projekte sind, wo's am Ende früher mal so eine große Abschlussarbeit gab, ja, sagen, na ja, die machen so alle 2 Wochen, glaub ich, son Minikollochium eben und das quasi das ganze Semester über.\n\nUnd es gibt quasi am Ende nur eine Note für all diese Einzelgespräche sozusagen. Es gibt jetzt nicht die eine große Prüfungssituation, sondern Du wirst halt andauernd sozusagen im laufenden Betrieb geprüft.\n\nSpeaker 1: Warte und aber musst Du dir irgendwas zeigen? Ist das 'n Projekt, das Du dir für 2 Wochen mitnimmst oder wie, wirst Du einfach Nee, nee, die\n\nSpeaker 0: kriegen quasi ein Projekt, was die das ganze Semester über macht und sie sprechen quasi Immer im Zwischenetappen. Genau. Über die Zwischenetappen, was ist der Fortschritt, wie haben wir das gelöst, woran hängen wir grade? Und das ist natürlich, fand ich auch irgendwie 'n cooles Format, son bisschen, na, weil da kannst Du, ad hoc kannst Du ja nicht irgendwie andere Tools nehmen, Du musst das dann selber beantworten können alles und Du musst selber artikulieren können, was auch dein Problem ist, was egal wie sehr man jetzt eher ein nutzt oder nicht, allein artikulieren zu können, woran scheiterst Du gerade, was brauche ich, was was ist die Challenge so? Ja.\n\nDas ist ja schon mal 'n wichtiger Skill. Und das fand ich eigentlich ganz interessantes Format, hab ich mir gedacht so, das hätte ich mir auch zu meinem Studium schon gewünscht irgendwie, nicht so diese eine Prüfungssituation zu haben, wo man ehrlicherweise auch vielleicht mal 'n schlechten Tag haben kann oder 'n Aussetzer oder so, sondern einfach zu sagen, so kontinuierlich schauen, wie ist dein progress, wie verhältst Du dich, wie näherst Du dich dem Problem, wie ist dein Lösungsansatz und das dann zu bewerten, fand ich gut.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, interessant. Ich ich ich würd vielleicht einfach noch vor einen Punkt zurückkommen, den Du gerade erwähnt hast, Olaf, den fand ich nämlich sehr interessant. So grad, was Du gesagt hast, sone, wenn diese klassischen Programmiermodule oder auch Datenbankensystem, was ja so, glaub ich, son klassisches Modul ist. Und da muss ja auch eine Aussage von vorhin denken, die Du gesagt hast, von wegen, na ja, man muss diese technische Tiefe haben. Ich glaub, Zitat von dir, man muss verstehen, wie dieser Algorithmus funktioniert.\n\nUnd da erinner ich mich zum Beispiel auch an meine Studienzeit. Da hatten wir das große Modul Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen, wird's wahrscheinlich in soner Form auch genau bei euch geben. Ist so irgendwie so das Aussiehtmodul generell. Und da haben wir ja wirklich noch gelernt, so ne, was ist Screens, was sind Integer, so was ist irgendwie 'n Array, was sind Listen bla bla. Und wie schreibt man jetzt diesen Algorithmus, der das und das macht oder hier ist 'n Algorithmus, was kommt am Ende dabei raus und so was alles, ne, dass wir sehr stark drauf eingegangen sind.\n\nUnd da ist vielleicht bei mir son bisschen diese ketzerische Frage an der Stelle so, ist es etwas, was wir in Zukunft tatsächlich wirklich noch brauchen? So, ne, weil also wenn es jetzt darum geht zum Beispiel, also ne, also ehrlicherweise damals hab ich auch schon hinterfragt, wir haben so was wie implementier man so, ne. So und dabei hab ich gefragt, na ja, wie oft brauch ich in meinem beruflichen Alltag 'n? Wie oft hast Du\n\nSpeaker 0: bei Lotum schon implementiert? Nie. Nie.\n\nSpeaker 1: So, ne. Weil natürlich mittlerweile gilt's ja auch die ganzen Hilfsfunktion, ne, Punkt Sort und so was alles. Und natürlich kann man jetzt noch mal, ne, wieder die Frage stellen so, na ja, aber sone wird das perfekt für mich lösen so eigentlich auf auf dieser kleinen Mikrokosmosebene. Und genau, und da vielleicht an der Stelle dann wirklich so sehr, sehr hardlinig gefragt so, ist das überhaupt noch notwendig, dieses tiefe Verständnis von Algorithmen, von Datenstrukturen, von Datenbank Querys dann beizubringen und zu lernen?\n\nSpeaker 2: In Kürze, ja. Etwas etwas ausführlicher.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mir können wir abbrechen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Folge ist fertig. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Etwa Vielen Dank fürs Zuhören. Bis nächste Woche.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, etwas ausführlicher. Ich halte Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen für für die Praxis, für ein ganz, ganz wahnsinnig wichtiges Modul. Und grade Sortieralgorithmen hast Du angesprochen. Mhm. Neben dem, man guckt sich ja so 6, 7 Sortieralgorithmen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, Burnen Sword, Bubbles Sword.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, genau. Und das macht man nicht macht man nicht, weil das Sortiersystem Sortierproblem so so essenziell ist. Das ist ja eigentlich klar, Dinge in Ordnung bringen. Ja. Oder weil man später dann irgendwie einen dieser Algorithmen jemals implementieren müsste oder noch optimieren müsste oder sonst irgendwas, aber einfach dieses Verständnis allein diese Tatsache, dass für son relativ überschaubares Problem es diese Vielzahl an Algorithmen gibt, das ist wieder dieses vom Problem zum Programm.\n\nDas Problem ist das Sortieren. Ich hab eine Vielzahl von Algorithmen. Ich kann die Algorithmen noch mal unterschiedlich implementieren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich\n\nSpeaker 2: kann den, ich ich hab die 2 großen Gruppen der der quadratischen, einfachen Sortierverfahren und der schnellen. Das ist ja auch eine 1 wahnsinnige Sache. Wenn ich in irgendeinem anderen Problem, das ist dann natürlich der das Geld, dass ich das mitnehme. Was heißt es denn, wenn jetzt irgendetwas quadratisch ist und wenn man dann mal mit 'ner auf 'nem entsprechend großen Array hat laufen lassen, dann weiß man, dass weiß man, was quadratisch heißt, geht\n\nSpeaker 1: Die o von n Notation. Genau. Geht damit noch.\n\nSpeaker 0: Lauf ja nicht\n\nSpeaker 1: reflektiert. Oh, aber nicht ausm Studium. Nein.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Also von dem her, glaube ich, ist das immer noch unwahrscheinlich wichtig. Und und diese Ideen, die werden ja auch wieder aufgegriffen im anderen Kontext. Also neben Sortieren macht man dann ja auch Haching, baumbasierte Suchverfahren Mhm. Und so weiter.\n\nUnd die Ideen brauche ich dann ja auch wieder auf modernen Systemen. Schließt son bisschen den Kreis zur Javaland oder Defland, Vektordatenbanken. Ja. Wenn Vektordatenbanken indexiert werden, da habe ich mir da aber mal auch wieder hash basierte oder baum basierte oder auf irgend 'ner anderen Datenstrukturen, auf grafen basierte Verfahren. Und die Entwicklerinnen und Entwickler, die haben auch in Algorithmen Datenstrukturen eine gute Vorlesung gehabt, die das transferieren konnten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich möchte vielleicht noch mal das aufgreifen, was Du gesagt hast, dieses übers Semester. Das ist, ich hatte ja gesagt, Laborarbeiten, klassische Module. Der weitere Bereich sind dann Studien, Bachelor, arbeiten, Masterarbeit und bei uns im dualen Studium auch die die die Praxisberichte und arbeiten. Da denke ich, ist auch zu viel KI Generierung zu vermeiden, ja, gerade sone engere Betreuung notwendig, dass man wirklich in sonem 2 Wochen Rhythmus sieht, wie so etwas entsteht in sonem Projekt und dann kriegt man ja schon mit, wer sich Gedanken macht und wer da versucht, mit relativ schlankem Fuß raus sag ich mal.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wenn Du sagst, engere Betreuung.\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm. Hochschulen\n\nSpeaker 0: sind ja jetzt nicht dafür bekannt, dass sie mit unendlich vielen Mitteln ausgestattet sind. Ja. Das ist ja am Ende auch einfach 'n Personalproblem dann, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ja. Ja, also diese Betreuung jetzt bei bei Studienarbeiten beispielsweise, also ich mach in der Regel dann im 14 Tages Rhythmus im Semester Termine mit den Studierenden. Das ist an der Stelle dann schon, ja, denke ich, gehört dazu. Das bringt einfach das das die die Lehrtätigkeit da entsprechend mit sich. Das das gehört dazu, dass man nicht dem Studium am Anfang das Thema gibt und sagt, in 9 Monaten kann's abgeben und dann ja, schiebe ich das Ding mal bei ChatGPT rein und lass mir das Gutachten generieren.\n\nDas ja wäre auch nicht nicht nicht fair den Studierenden gegenüber, muss man einfach mal sagen. Die eigentliche Arbeit am Ende, die verliert dann vielleicht sogar ein bisschen an Gewicht, dass man dann bei der Bewertung auch mehr den den Fortschritt, die Idee, das Denken in Alternativen, da hat 1 irgend eine Lösung gefunden, irgend eine Architektur. Was wären, es gibt immer Alternativen und immer Kriterien, an denen ich das objektiv festmachen kann, egal für welche Lösung ich mich dann auch entscheide, dass all diese ja vorhin genannten weicheren Skills, wie hat der Student die Studentin die im Projekt angesetzt, dass man das verstärkt in die Begutachtung mit mit reinnimmt. Wobei auch das Schreiben nach wie vor, denke ich, eine wichtige Sache ist, auch im Informatik oder allgemein im technischen Umfeld. Wir brauchen nicht nur laufenden Code, sei ja selbst geschrieben, sei ja generiert, sei ja orchestriert oder wie auch immer zusammengestöpselt.\n\nWir brauchen dann auch technische Dokumentation. Wir brauchen Handbücher. Wir brauchen Ausschreibungstexte in gewissen Szenarien und Branchen und so weiter und da muss man eben auch selber formulieren können und auch das das Schreiben selber an einem Dokument. Beim Schreiben denkt man auch nach, beim Schreiben reflektiert man. Beim Schreiben kommen einem manchmal auch Ideen, das hat man irgendwie im Kopf, also hier wieder bei euch, ah da könnten wir mal ein tolles Spiel machen, das irgend eine abstrakte Idee und dann beim Aufschreiben stellen wir fest, so wird's wahrscheinlich doch nicht ganz\n\nSpeaker 1: Ist nicht\n\nSpeaker 2: so lustig. Funktionieren. Ja. Oder ich geborene's noch mal jemand anderen zum drüberlesen und der sagt, was was soll das denn oder was hast dir dabei denn gedacht? Also dieser der der Prozess des Schreibens an sich, der ist auch im technischen Umfeld ein 1 auch ein wichtiger Soft Skill nach wie vor.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber ich würd nicht sagen per se das Schreiben an sich, sondern einfach dieses Aussprechen und Festhaltende Idee. Also sei es jetzt Schreiben, sei es jetzt auch diktieren so, ne, das ist halt\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also das ist jetzt nicht Schreiben mit Stimmt oder Ja, aber ich glaube, dass die das zu Ende denken Genau, genau. Der Idee so, dadurch den Punkt, ne. Ich hab auch letzte Woche an 'nem Prototypen gesessen und im Prinzip kann man ja in deutscher, englischer, menschlicher Sprache die Idee schon so konkret aufschreiben, dass der Schritt zum Code eigentlich nicht mehr, also nur noch 'n Übersetzungsproblem ist sozusagen, ne. Und man kann ja jedes Problem eigentlich schon so genau ausspezifizieren, so genau zu Ende denken, dass man schon merkt, okay, klappt das oder klappt das nicht? Und ob ich das dann am Ende in, weiß nicht, in in c, in Java, in Python, in irgendwas noch mal portiere, damit das Laufweg ist, das ist ja dann der allerletzte kleinste Schritt sozusagen.\n\nAber 90 Prozent von der Arbeit sind ja vorher schon schon passiert sozusagen. Und ich glaube, das ist das das Wichtige, dieses zu Ende denken. Mhm. Und ob Du das jetzt diktierst, sprichst, malst oder irgendwas, ich glaube, der Skill ist im Kopf, das konsequent durchzugehen. Mhm.\n\nAber weil Du Schreiben und Denken gesagt hast, hat hat Lesen auch jetzt vielleicht noch mal sone andere Rolle bekommen, weil das ist das, was wir hier auch immer son bisschen diskutieren, ja. In dem Moment, wo wo mehr Code quasi fremd erzeugt wird, ich ja aber trotzdem noch dafür verantwortlich bin, ja. Hier bei uns sind wir inhaltlich da verantwortlich, bei euch ist man in der Prüfung dann spätestens dafür verantwortlich, muss man ja quasi viel mehr Code lesen, verstehen lernen, den man gar nicht selber geschrieben hat, was da sone Challenge war, die's früher vielleicht weniger gab, weil der meiste Code, den man gelesen hatte, war man vorher schon mal irgendwie involviert. Und jetzt ist man immer nur noch son unbeteiligter Dritter sozusagen in diesem ganzen Szenario. Und das finde ich doch immer son sehr anderer Skillset als als vorher.\n\nWeil weiß nicht, Dave, hatten Sie's das auch so?\n\nSpeaker 1: Hundertprozentig. Also es ist ja, also allein aus der Vergangenheit, was ich erkenne, ein 1 PR zu und ein PR zu machen so, ist ja also ist ja, nee wie Tag und Nacht, aber ist schon 'n Unterschied, ne. Weil einfach so, okay, was hat sich die Person dabei gedacht so? Und wenn ich in der 'n paar PR erstelle, dann Also ich weiß ja, was meine Gedanken dazu waren. So, irgendwie dabei erst mal nach zu nennen, ach so, der das so und so aufgezogen, damit das und das Ergebnis am Ende rauskommt so.\n\nUnd das ist natürlich, also ist nicht 'n ganz anderer Skill, aber ich find auf jeden Fall anstrengender, Punkt 1. Und man muss da doch noch mehr Zeit reinstecken, als man meint.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, denke ich auch. Also das das Problem war, denke ich, auch in der Vergangenheit schon da, wenn man alten Code geerbt hat, den irgendwer irgendwie entwickelt hat, sage ich mal vorsichtig. Aber ja, wenn's jetzt nicht nicht ganz hanebüchen war, was dass irgendeiner was zusammen gehackt hat, war's immer noch menschlich produzierter Code, der gewissen Richtlinien unterlag und wenn er im eigenen Unternehmen, im eigenen Team war, dann hat man ja schon gewisse Coding Styles Richtlinien. Wann werden welche Muster wie verwendet? Wie werden Variablen benannt und so weiter, was einem ja grade die Lesbarkeit dann schon entsprechend oder auch Dokumentationsrichtlinien, was einem dann ja schon die Lesbarkeit und Verständlichkeit erhöhen soll.\n\nDas wird natürlich jetzt durch fremd generierten Code noch mal erschwert, weil man einfach aus verschiedenen mit verschiedenen Styles ja auch Code haben kann, der an verschiedenen Stellen generiert worden ist und dann in in in das Gesamtpaket irgendwie eingeflossen ist. Also das denke ich auch und aber auch dafür wieder noch mal, komme ich noch mal zum Argument von vorhin zurück, ist es notwendig, ja, ich denke auch selber mal codiert zu haben noch mal, Auf jeden Fall hat man gar keine Chance, das irgendwie zu verstehen. Ja, und auch das das tiefe Verständnis, tiefe technische Verständnis dort dann für für Algorithmen. Also wenn man dann sieht, da ist eine fünffach geschachtelte Schleife, dann hat man sofort, ja der Alarmglocken. Der geübte Blick sagt, ja, wenn da eine signifikant große Anzahl Durchläufe ist, ist das langsam.\n\nDas erkennt man dann ja auch. Und und das ist dann sicherlich die Aufgabe zu, das zu erkennen, zu überlegen, muss es so sein? Vielleicht geht's ja auch nicht anders an der Stelle oder kann man da in diesem Methoden rum vielleicht irgendwas dran drehen und und entsprechend besser machen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich ich ich fühl mich grad son bisschen in der Rolle von Dennis, son bisschen der Lichter ist. Dennis ist 'n großer AI Verfechter bei uns, bei Loto generell und sagt, na ja, das sind aktuelle Probleme, aber in paar Monaten muss man das nicht mehr machen. Und ich ich ich würd das nicht auch son bisschen in die Richtung gehen, also ich ich ich geh mit dir mit auf jeden Fall, dass ich sagen würde, ja, es ist auf jeden Fall superpraktisch, jetzt noch halt Coach schreiben zu können, so, ne, als wir's zumindest mal gemacht haben. Also beispielsweise wir, also ich war jetzt auch im Bewerbungsverfahren tätig und wir haben trotzdem auch geprüft so, kann der Bewerber hier jetzt Code schreiben? So, ist er in der Lage so, ne.\n\nDas Ergebnis ist auch nicht so unbedingt wichtig, aber halt so dieses, ah, okay, ja, dieses grundlegende Verständnis ist schon mal gut. Und ich ich jetzt irgendwie aber mir denke so, es gab ja schon auch in der Vergangenheit in der Informatik so verschiedene Abstraktionsebenen. Also weißt Du wahrscheinlich noch mal viel besser als ich, als 90, also nicht 90. Okay. Vorsichtig.\n\nAls Informatiker der Neunzigerjahre, so. Formulieren kann ich. Genau. Nee, ne, das ist so, also die ersten Programmiersprachen versus jetzt die, die dann später dazukamen, die ja dann mal viel krasser waren, ne. Sei's jetzt irgendwie Java, Python, Typescript, dass sie auch viele Sachen besser gemacht hat, ne.\n\nAuch jetzt grad, wir sind ja auch sehr stark im Web Development, die ganzen Frameworks, die ja existieren, die ja einfach nur eine Abstraktionsebene für uns abnehmen. Und dann, also wir sind einfach eine Ebene drüber und wir müssen uns jetzt nicht mehr Reaktivität kümmern so. Das macht ja alles das Framework für uns. Und das jetzt, wenn man das noch mal weiterspinnt und denkt so, na ja, die AI nimmt uns die Abstraktionsebene Programmieren ab und wir sind dann, wie Du eingangs gesagt hast, son bisschen, na ja, wir wir sind so die Architekten. Wir schauen so, dass das ganze System funktioniert.\n\nWir orchestrieren und so was alles, dass das unsere Aufgabe ist. Und dass halt quasi die die Final Abstraktionsebene, wo wir uns immer geholfen haben, so Programmieren einfacher zu machen, dass jetzt so die letzte Stufe sein könnte so, okay, der Teil wird uns genommen, irgendwie diesen Code dann auch zu schreiben. Mhm. Dass man das nicht so weiter spinnen könnte.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also ich denke, es wird noch da noch deutlich auch Weiterentwicklungen geben. Die Systeme können durch gezieltes Nachtrainieren, durch Verbesserungen, durch weitere Mechanismen, Inferenzmechanismen und Ähnliches noch besser werden und noch besseren Code dann auch generieren in ja, nah mittlerer Zukunft, ohne da jetzt was Konkretes zu nennen. Aber ich glaube, dass die das vollständige Wegorganisieren der dieser Abstraktion, dass das das eigentliche Progers, eigentliche Kodieren da komplett abzugeben, wegzuabstrahieren wird mit den Systemen, die die wir heute kennen, nicht nicht möglich sein. Man wird immer noch an gewissen Stellen den den Einblick benötigen. Das noch mal zu ergänzen zu deinem Beispiel mit den Frameworks.\n\nDa ja auch, es ist nach wie vor das oder oder die die Frameworks zu nennen, die Frameworks zu zu nutzen, sinnvoll zu nutzen, muss ich ja auch verstehen, was passiert da drunter. Also beispielsweise, wenn wir son in der Datenbankwelt son OER Mapper haben, Hypernate oder was Ähnliches. Wenn ich den ja verwende, ohne zu wissen, wie's in der Datenbank läuft und funktioniert, komme ich ja kann ich ja sehr, sehr schnell in in Performancenngpässe kommen, insbesondere wenn bei 'ner 1 zu viele Beziehung dann einzeln jeder Satz danach geladen wird und da sind 'n paar Millionen Tupel in der in der Detailrelation. Das heißt, wenn ich dieses Phänomen hab, das tritt dann zum Beispiel auf, dann muss ich ja auch wissen, ah, da stimmt was nicht, da muss ich, kann ich ja mit dem Framework möglicherweise lösen, aber es muss sich irgendwie anders nutzen, anders konfigurieren, wie man es da funktioniert. Mhm.\n\nUnd dass die KI das dann da komplett übernimmt, glaub ich, stand heute nicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Es ist ja auch nicht nur immer mehr, also was Du angesprochen hast, Dave ist ja eigentlich immer nur eine Abstraktionsebene höher, ne. Also am Anfang haben wir uns irgendwie von Lochkarten hin zu sprachen, dann kam irgendwie so was wie dazu und ne, also immer immer höher. Und ja, irgendwie die versuchen es, glaub ich, naheliegend zu sagen, na ja, wenn wir jetzt in menschlicher Sprache programmieren und dem LLM sagen, was wir haben wollen, dann ist das ja auch nur eine Abstraktionsstufe höher. Aber ich glaub, der fundamentale Unterschied, das ist das, was Olaf vorher gesagt hat, so ist ja dieser nicht deterministische Teil, der jetzt quasi als Teil dieses Layers irgendwie dazukommt. Und dementsprechend ist es eben nicht einfach nur mehr Abstraktion, sondern so diese Blackbox, von der man gar nicht sagen kann oder will, Mhm.\n\nWas und wie sie denn da so am Ende des Tages macht, so. Und andersrum formuliert kann ja KI auch nur so gut funktionieren, weil sie diese Blackbox ist, weil sie dieses nicht deterministische, generative Moment eben drin hat. Also, in dem Moment, wo Du sie zu sehr einschränkst, wieder auf hundertprozentige Sicherheit und Determinismus zurückzukommen, verlierst Du ja auch viele Effekte von dem, was sie dir gebracht hat. Ja. So, ja.\n\nVon daher wird es, glaub ich, immer son Spannungsverhältnis bleiben, zumindest auf absehbare Zeit, wenn dann nicht irgendwie architektonisch noch was ganz anderes vom Ansatz her die Ecke kommt, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: So, jetzt haben wir 'n bisschen darüber gesprochen, wie sich das inhaltlich verändert, wie das von Studierenden genutzt wird, wie das in Prüfungssituationen aussieht, aber mich würde natürlich auch interessieren, wie das für Lehrende selbst ist, ja, weil auch für euch liegt ja die die Versuchung, sag ich mal, positiv nahe, das auch irgendwie zu nutzen, ja. Jeder von uns hat Arbeit, hat was zu tun und ist immer irgendwie daran interessiert, dass sich sich zu vereinfachen. Und ja, wo wo nutzt Du das ganz konkret?\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm, mhm, ja. Also ja, Professoren, Professoren sind ja von außen leicht im Verdacht, dass sie manchmal versuchen, ja, sehr ökonomisch zu handeln, zum Beispiel die gleiche Vorlesung über Jahre aufrechtzuerhalten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hatte da mal einen Mathalehrer im in der Oberstufe, der immer gesagt hat, er nimmt seit Jahrzehnten dieselbe Prüfungsbögen. Er macht sie nur jedes Jahr dümmer, weil die Schüler immer schlechter werden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Die Ergebnisse wurden trotzdem nicht besser. Entschuldigung.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Jetzt jetzt kann man sich ja im Prinzip irgendwie sagen, ich ich lass mir 'n Foliensatz generieren zu dem und dem Thema oder brech das im im Dialog son bisschen runter, sagt, das ist der Topic, dann gibt's eine Gliederung, dann verhandelt man noch mal 'n bisschen das Kapitel rein, das raus und meistens wird's einem ja schon angeboten, soll ich dir schon mal für Powerpoint und so weiter das vorbereiten? Also das das glaube ich, das ist nix. Also das hat das hat dann keine Qualität und kein keinen Tiefgang. Also wenn man sich vor eine Gruppe Studierender stellt oder auf 1 wissenschaftlichen oder Entwicklerkonferenz vor Menschen stellt und da was erzählt, dann muss man auch selber, also ich hab's ja gefordert, grad die die große technische Tiefe für die zukünftigen Studierenden, dann kann ich selber nicht als Oberflächenschwimmer daherkommen.\n\nDas ist das geht nicht. Deswegen, ja, wenn man bestehende Vorlesungen überarbeitet, neue Inhalte reinnimmt oder bestehende überarbeitete neue Vorlesung angeht, also erstelle ich die Vorlesungen dort selber, die die Folien. Und und man muss auch, wenn man da 'n Algorithmus hat und vorstellt, den muss man selber mal Schritt für Schritt ausgerechnet haben, wir hatten's vorhin ja im Vorgespräch, wie stark ist denn so die Interaktion? Na ja, da gibt's schon mal den einen oder anderen, der dann sagt, wie ist 'n das, wenn und so weiter und jetzt wollen wir mal schauen und so weiter und das das wären wir persönlich auch peinlich, da vorne zu stehen und im Grunde keine Ahnung zu haben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das eine ist der dieser fachliche Teil, das andere ist ja auch immer so der die subjektive Wahrheit da dran, ne. Also ich hatte auch, als wir die Studierenden hier hatten, gefragt, wie würdet ihr euch denn fühlen, wenn ihr sehen würdet, euer Dozent, euer Professor steht da vorne und ihr nutzt hier Material, was halt offensichtlich jetzt so mit mit KI generiert. Das sind nicht unbedingt inhaltlich falsch oder so, also einfach dann, man sieht ja diesen diesen kreativen Stil, die Schreibweise, man kann das ja son bisschen Ja. Doch schon erkennen irgendwie. Und da gab's son sehr gespaltenes Feedback von den einen, die gesagt haben, so, ja, das ist ja voll okay, ich nutz KI, warum soll er das nicht nutzen können?\n\nSolange das inhaltlich irgendwie korrekt ist, ist, soll mir das recht sein. Und die anderen, die gesagt haben, na ja, ich hab mir ja schon diese Hochschule, diese Uni, diesen dieses Modul, diesen Dozent vielleicht auch im Zweifelsfall aussucht, weil ich ja was von ihm im Prinzip haben will und da auch an der an der Person ja wahrscheinlich auch 'n gewisser Wert hängt für die Studierenden so, ja. Und wenn da quasi KI so als als Gatekeeper son bisschen dazwischen fungiert, da haben wir gesagt, das würde sich für die schon son bisschen wie so, ja, nicht eine Mogelpackung, aber das hat halt son Beigeschmack, ja. Der da, das hat man und dann musste ich an den Fall denken. Ich glaub, wir hatten das auch mal in den News live, wo eine Studentin ihre Hochschule verklagt hat, weil eben ihr Dozent auch da KI Material genutzt hat, gesagt hat, na ja, das war eine private Hochschule, ich zahl hier viel Geld quasi, ja.\n\nMhm. Und dann werde ich mit so KI Ergebnissen hier abgespeist in der Vorlesung. Das kann ja irgendwie auch nicht sein, so. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hat sie recht bekommen? Was war das Ergebnis von diesem Case?\n\nSpeaker 0: Sie hat, glaub ich, nicht recht bekommen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah. Aber ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: genau.\n\nSpeaker 2: Deswegen begrüße ich\n\nSpeaker 0: das auch, ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Also das erst mal generell für die Vorlesung. Ja, so im Kleinen kann man's, denk ich, vielleicht schon nutzen, zum Beispiel sich Übungsaufgaben mal als Vorschlag generieren zu lassen. Auch da wieder das plumpe generieren und 1 zu 1 reinkopieren aufs eigene Übungsblatt funktioniert auch da nicht. Ist genau wie mitm Code.\n\nEs geht eben, was wie Begrifflichkeiten verwendet werden, wie Definitionen aufgebaut sind, geht's eben 'n Stück weit auseinander. Und das muss man dann schon auf die eigene auf die eigene Vorlesung entsprechend anpassen, adaptieren oder sagen, nee, die Aufgabe ist zwar nett gemeint, aber die passt jetzt da bei mir nicht rein. Ja. Und auch das kann man irgendwie nicht bringen als Dozierender, dass dann da irgendwie, ja, man ja sofort enttarnt ist heutzutage, wenn man da eine Aufgabe hat und da stehen Begriffe drin, die man selber nicht in der Vorlesung hatte. Ja.\n\nIst ja klar, wo die Quelle entsprechend herkommt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Ich wie war das ganz kurz? Eine Folge war dazu noch. Wie war das bei euch im im Fachbereich? War das war das eine Diskussion?\n\nWeil ich mein, auch bei uns in in den Entwicklerteams her wird ja auch diskutiert so, wie viel wollen wir, wie viel sollen wir, wie viel müssen wir davon irgendwie nutzen, ja. Ja. Und gab's dann bei euch da auch Lehrer, die gesagt haben so, ja, nee, also ich ich will das überhaupt gar nicht oder die sich gerne noch mehr Einsatz gewünscht hätten oder gab's da überhaupt gar keine Diskussion?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, jetzt keine größere Diskussion. Aber es gibt schon eine ganze Menge, die da, die da, die da, die da, die ist es ja in Ordnung. Ich, ja, die die Aufgaben sind manchmal, wenn man sich zum Beispiel Aufgaben generieren lässt, da kann manchmal auch, Ja, das muss nicht falsch sein, aber es kann trotzdem didaktischer Humbug sein. Honor, ja. Also ich hatte neulich habe ich mir auch mal eine Aufgabe, neulich im letzten Wintersemester mal eine Aufgabe generieren lassen.\n\nDa ging's verschiedene statistische Streu- und Lagemasse, die wollten wir irgendwie für für Daten verwenden und da hab ich ihn noch mal wiederholt die Begriffe entsprechend so Median, Mittelwert, kumulative Distribution und so weiter, diese ganze\n\nSpeaker 1: Den, die man kennt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, genau. Das ist ja auch nett.\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh ja, stimmt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Da sollte da sollte der 20 Zahlen zwischen 1 und 9 entsprechend generieren und dafür wollten wir das dann, das war unser Beispiel Dataset, woran wir das eben berechnen wollten. Und das hat er auch gemacht, hat auch die Lösungen alles korrekt rausgegeben, aber hatte eine komplette Gleichverteilung in den Daten. Also jede Ziffer kam gleich oft vor entsprechend. Dadurch war das Ding natürlich didaktisch unbrauchbar. Ich hab eine völlig gleiche Verteilung.\n\nJa, Mittelwert und Median fallen ja schon zusammen und ja, ist eigentlich alles witzlos, das da dann zu demonstrieren. Da will man ja 'n bisschen asymmetrische Verteilung haben. Auch da wieder muss man raufgucken, muss sagen, die Aufgabe ist okay, aber jetzt noch mal mit Mit sinnvollen Daten. Ungleich Verteilung der der der Daten, genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Kleine Anekdote auch aus unserem Leben. Wir wollten nämlich auch für unsere Bewerber haben wir nämlich auch Claude gefragt so, hey, stell mal bitte eine Aufgabe, die eine AI nicht lösen kann. Und dann so, okay, sone kleine Entwickleraufwerb kann man ja nur stellen. Und Claude dann so, ja, stell dir mir lieber die Aufgabe, ein Betriebssystem zu entwickeln.\n\nDas bringt keine AI. Und dann immer so, ja, kleine Einstiegsaufgabe.\n\nSpeaker 0: Lotum o s als Prüfhaussituation.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Okay. Du hattest noch gefragt, ganze Abschlussarbeiten Ja. Sich begutachten zu lassen von der AI.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist ja auch rechtlich, glaub ich, gar nicht bei uns so möglich, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, es ist es ja genau. Also Mit lokalen\n\nSpeaker 1: LLMs, aber\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, genau, genau. Also wir haben auch bei uns an der Hochschule ein lokales LLM, was geschützt in einem Moodle System drinliegt. Wenn man da 'n kompletten Text hochlädt, kommt aber auch die Warnung, ich darf gemäß der Richtlinien und so weiter hier keine, ich kann nur eine Einschätzung geben. Ja, ich ich glaub auch da ist die kommt die KI, sie kann sicherlich Stärken, Schwächen, irgendwie Punkte schon rausarbeiten, einem Orientierungspunkte geben. Aber sie wird da und da gab's 'n Artikel in der Nature, das waren ging jetzt Konferenzartikel, nicht studentische Arbeiten, aber die dort auch gerevued werden mussten.\n\nEs war im Bereich Lebenswissenschaften, Bio irgendwo angesiedelt. Da wurde das relativ systematisch untersucht, dass die Begutachtungen ja relativ viele Allgemeinplätze hatten wie das kann noch präziser sein, im Abschnitt über Related Work könnten noch weitere Quellen genannt werden und so weiter. Das das So sehr generisches Feedback. Ja, genau. Genau und und damit das Ganze auch dann irgendwo in der Mitte zusammenschiebt.\n\nEs es wurde wenig erkannt, was was schlechte Paper waren und die richtig Guten wurden dafür ein bisschen nach unten gedrückt und es war relativ wenig Ausdifferenzierung. Und das, denke ich, ist bei, wird dann bei längeren Texten nicht nicht besser oder die die KI nicht urteiltsicherer.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wenn wir schon bei dem Review Punkt sind, vielleicht eine letzte Frage dann noch. Nutzt ihr das auch so im im Plagiatskontext, so Plagiatsuntersuchungen bei Prüfungen oder so was? Ja, also Weil das ist ja auch immer son Wettrüsten gefühlt, dieses ganze Plagiatsthema.\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm. Ja, Plagiate sind bei uns gar nicht mal son großes Thema auch in dem Jahr vor der KI nicht gewesen. Wir hatten vorhin ja gesagt, dieser Betreuungsrhythmus, dass man schaut, wie sich sone Arbeit entwickelt über die Kurz mal,\n\nSpeaker 1: hattet ihr das auch schon vor AI genauso gemacht? Dass wir diesen regelmäßigen 2 Wochenabschnitt. Ah, okay, okay. Also ein System, das das vorher schon gut war und jetzt halt da Genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Rein zu fahren.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, jetzt vielleicht noch etwas konsequenter da nachzuverfolgen. Ja. Und jetzt auch grad bei dem Bachelorarbeiten ist bei uns im dualen Studium das Problem eigentlich auch nicht existent, weil die Arbeiten ja in Kooperation mit 'nem dualen Partner stattfinden, mit 'nem Unternehmen. Es ist dann ja meistens eine sehr spezifische Aufgabe Stimmt. Zu der man dann auch nichts kein keine Vorlage findet, die man plagiieren könnte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Also von dem her ist es da nicht das ganz große Thema. Klar, im Grundlagenteil kann man das durchaus\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, aber es rettet einen ja dann nicht. Also es kann's einem ja auch nur noch eine Hilfe sein im Prinzip. Genau. Okay. Aber das ist ja wichtiger Punkt, das duale, da haben wir noch gar nicht so groß drüber gesprochen.\n\nEs hilft euch bestimmt ja schon, hast Du am Anfang gesagt, son Einblick da reinzubekommen, so was passiert eigentlich gerade draußen am Markt? Wie wird da gearbeitet? Womit wird da gearbeitet? Was ist relevant und was nicht? Mhm.\n\nGleichzeitig müsste ja trotzdem im Prinzip jetzt mit dem Curriculum Leute auf den Arbeitseinstieg in, Du hast wohl gesagt, so die frühen Mitte Dreißigerjahre im Prinzip vorbereiten. Mhm. Wie schafft ihr das da, sone Antizipation zu haben von dem, was da überhaupt gebraucht wird?\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm. Mhm. Ja. Ja, also im Dualen vielleicht erst mal, die Frage zu beantworten, ist es natürlich dieses Spiel. Es kommt von draußen sicherlich Input, was dort grade genutzt wird.\n\nZum anderen soll natürlich aber auch schon in die andere Richtung irgendwie die Idee sein, dass auch die Studierenden Ideen ins Unternehmen hineintragen. Ja, der 2. Teil deiner Frage, wie kann man das Ganze ja in gewisser Weise zukunftssicher machen? Ich denke da auch, ja, wir hatten's ja im Laufe des Gesprächs schon mehrfach erwähnt, mehr Konzepte und technologische Grundlagen als als jetzt Tool Wissen und zu aktuelle Dinge. Das ist natürlich gerade im KI Markt, im generativen KI Markt jetzt wahrscheinlich leichter gesagt als getan.\n\nIm im im klassischen Programmieren hatten wir auch diskutiert, Algorithmen, Datenstrukturen, das ist sicher, das das ist über Jahrzehnte das das gewachsen und und das ist, denke ich, Knowledge, was man auch in der Zukunft braucht. Im generativen KI Markt ist es natürlich dann auch, das natürlich alles sehr volatil. Und und diese diese Geschwindigkeit der der Entwicklung in den letzten Jahren, die ja macht die einem, lässt einen mit den Ohren schlackern bis hin, dass es einem auch ein bisschen Angst macht, was da so geschieht und entsprechend möglich ist.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dave, hast Du noch eine Frage?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, eine Letzt vielleicht, weil das noch gar nicht so sehr vorkam, bisschen Du hast grade so angeschnitten von wegen, na ja, wir wollen jetzt nicht auf irgendwie das neueste Tool springen und irgendwie den Hype und so mitnehmen. Ist es aber trotzdem etwas so quasi, hey, also dass man jetzt vielleicht sogar darüber nachdenkt, 'n neues Modul zu schaffen, so, Entwicklerkompetenz mit AI oder so, wo man das dann dediziert, sich irgendwie vielleicht wirklich ein Modul, ein Semester Zeit nimmt oder dass man in irgend einen bestimmten anderen Modul schon unterbringt so, hey, das ist beispielsweise Klo, das irgendwie Kodex oder so und damit mal dann irgendwie rantastet so, was kann generative AI eigentlich im Entwicklerkontext? Ist das etwas, was bei euch schon besteht oder wo ihr diskutiert, das irgendwie noch mal expliziter zu leben?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also ich würde immer den den letzteren Weg gehen und sagen, das ist jetzt eben, wir haben ja eine Vorlesung Software Engineering, auch die gibt es Jahrzehnte und die hat sich ja auch bis 20 22 als der das die LLMs populär waren, immer weiterentwickelt. Da kamen ja auch neue Tools, neue Dinge hinzu und so weiter und dass da jetzt eben man nach wie vor auf aktuelle moderne Werkzeuge setzt und da gehören eben auch dann KI basierte Werkzeuge heutzutage dazu.\n\nSpeaker 0: Noch eine noch eine letzte Frage?\n\nSpeaker 1: Nein, nein, nein, nein.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab noch eine letzte Frage, ganz eigene. Oh. Ich hab ja\n\nSpeaker 1: Glaub ich, bei dir studieren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bitte. Nein. Als ich so überlegt hab, was ich alles studieren wollte, ne, und da hab ich mir auch son paar Probeveranstaltungen besucht für Informatik.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wann wann war das? Welches Jahrtausend? Dieses tatsächlich. Ah, okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dieses Ja, ich wusste auch tatsächlich. Und und was ich damals ehrlicherweise son bisschen abschreckend fand, als ich so in soner Probeninformatiklösung war, war so, mit mit welchen Sprachen da zum Beispiel einfach so gearbeitet wurde, ja. Was sind denn für euch heute so die gängigsten Lehrsprachen, die ihr benutzt in den meisten Vorlesungen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm. Mhm. Ja, wir starten mit Java.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist schon deutlich besser als das c, was mir damals angeboten wurde. Robert.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, okay, krass.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, wobei auch da noch mal Konzept versus Öl Ja. Versus Sprache. Es ist uns wichtig, dass wir Grundlagen des objektorientierten und des prozeduralen imperativen Programmierens vermitteln. Dann ja c c plus plus und C-Sharp dot net Plattformen spielen natürlich auch eine Rolle, immer abhängig, wie Dozierende sind, welche Dozierenden da sind oder was da ist und natürlich jetzt gerade durch die KI Geschichte kommt man nicht an Python vorbei. Python halte ich im Übrigen als 1.\n\nSprache, als Einstieg für nicht geeignet. Das ist mir ein Bedürfnis, das noch mal los zu machen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber ich muss sagen, als gute 2. Sprache finde ich. Also ich ich war sehr froh, mit Java anzufangen, weil's halt diese Konzepte von Objektorientierung und so was halt irgendwie sehr gut beigebracht hat. Aber dann Python war sehr, sehr angenehm, weil sobald man da son bisschen im Lauf war. Ich find, Python machst so Objektorientierung nicht so supergut, aber gut, ist ja ein anderes Thema, aber das fand ich da nicht so gut gelöst.\n\nJa, das\n\nSpeaker 0: ist ja, das\n\nSpeaker 2: ist es, wenn man wenn man programmieren kann, auch im fortgeschrittenen Alter, das mal sagen zu dürfen. Ich hab ja noch mit mit Sprachen wie Modula 2, kennt ihr das überhaupt noch?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ihr jungen Biester. Nee, das ist Sonny gehört tatsächlich.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ah ja, das war tatsächlich neunzehnhundertneunzig herum eine populäre Sprache in der Ausbildung. Ja, und ja, wenn man wenn man dann programmieren kann und und verschiedene Sprachen hat, kommen und gehen sehen in der Vergangenheit, dann kommt man gerade da mit Python auch dieser Vielzahl an Bibliotheken einfach, ist ja einfach eigentlich alles da im Bereich KI, maschinelles Lernen, Datenpipelines aufbauen und so weiter. Ist ja nicht schlecht die Sprache, aber ich halt sie nicht als als Lehrsprache für Programmier, Anfängerinnen, Anfänger Ja. Für geeignet.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ich bin voll bei dir zu sagen, die Sprache ist nicht das Allerentscheidende so, ja, sondern man muss halt die Konzepte damit lernen. Aber ich glaube schon, dass es halt gute Lehrsprachen gibt, die sich dadurch auszeichnen, dass sie einem viel ermöglichen, aber nicht viel abverlangen. Mhm. Man kann damit objektorientiert machen, man kann damit vielleicht auch funktional machen, man kann Multitreading machen, muss es aber vielleicht nicht, man kann parallel so, ja. Und da gibt's halt, glaub ich, einfach bessere oder schlechtere Kandidaten.\n\nUnd ja, ich bin auch dabei, Python ist wahrscheinlich nicht ideale Einstiegssprache, so, ja. Aber c war's bei ihm ja damals auf gar keinen Fall.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das war auch\n\nSpeaker 0: nicht, das muss ich auch sagen. Ja. Okay, gut, ey, hab mich nur ganz, ganz persönliches interessiert, was da grade grade passiert.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und jetzt deine letzte Abschlussfrage, oder Jan? Willst Du sie stellen? Ja, und zwar also eine Frage, die wir gerne am Ende stellen. Und zwar Die\n\nSpeaker 0: macht auch nur am Ende Sinn.\n\nSpeaker 2: Die gibt\n\nSpeaker 1: ja auch nur am Ende Sinn so tatsächlich. Also sie ist perfekt platziert am Ende. Und zwar gibt es eine Frage, die Du dir gewünscht hättest, die wir dir stellen, die wir dich gefragt haben oder irgendetwas, dass Du einfach loswerden möchtest, dass Du hier noch mal rausschreien möchtest in die große Welt\n\nSpeaker 0: Außer dass Python keine gute 1. Sprache Genau,\n\nSpeaker 2: ja, genau. Das war doch eigentlich schon 'n ganz gutes Schluss. Also ich hatte son paar Punkte. Im Podcast soll's ja nicht alles vorgegeben sein. Es soll ja eine lockere Unterhaltung sein, aber son paar Punkte, die mir schon wichtig waren zu dem Thema.\n\nIch denke, die haben wir eigentlich alle behandelt. Von dem her bin ich an der Stelle, wie man so schön sagt, vollumfänglich zufrieden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Geil, sehr schön. Das ist doch sehr cool.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir auch und das wär auch fast 'n gutes Schlusswort, aber was haben wir am Ende immer noch, Dave?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das Schweinchen des Tages. Nein. Die. Ah, Piks of the day.\n\nSpeaker 2: Machen wir\n\nSpeaker 0: weiter mit dem nächsten Thema, mit deiner genialenüberleitung. Was ist dein Pick of the day?\n\nSpeaker 1: Mein Pick of the day ist vielleicht passend zu heute, weil's ja nicht nur Lehre ging, sondern auch AI. Und zwar, es ist also es ist kein großes Geheimnis und ist auch nicht so super Spezielles, aber tatsächlich ist mein die Codex App. Codex kennt ihr beide? Ja. Codex ist nämlich quasi die Anwendung von der als dann Oberfläche, dir zu helfen, mit deinem Agenten zu reden und Dinge auch durchaus so parallelisieren.\n\nUnd dafür mag ich die wirklich sehr, sehr gerne, weil der deine ganzen Verzeichnisse direkt anzeigt und dann kannst Du da 'n neuen Chat aufmachen und dann sagen, hey, hier, arbeite mal jetzt daran und dann in 'nem anderen Ordner, arbeite jetzt an dem. Und das ist irgendwie, ich muss sagen, das hat jetzt so in letzter Zeit bei mir richtig reingeknallt. Vor allem also jetzt auch mit den neuen Modellen, Kodex Modellen 5 und 6, megagut. Und weil wir ja auch Backend und Frontend getrennt haben, das parallel zu entwickeln, das war dadurch superangenehm und smooth einfach, weil ich dann halt beides gleichzeitig mal konnte und dann halt quasi, hey, okay, nimmt das Frontend, das richtig auf, was das Backend macht und so. Und das fand ich sehr geil.\n\nUnd mein persönliches Highlight und das ist das Wichtigste, man kann ja unten auch einstellen, wie stark der Thinking Prozess sein soll. Das ist son kleiner Slider, der so cool leuchtet und das Das ist wirklich, das ist coolste.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich glaube, der sieht, na, wenn\n\nSpeaker 1: der wirklich schön aussieht. Das muss man sagen, es sieht wirklich schön aus.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich benutze die Kodex App nicht, deswegen muss ich doof nachfragen. Ja. Weil Du gesagt hast, Du kannst da mehrere Sachen dann quasi auch parallel machen. Das heißt, unterstützt dir auch so und so was alles, im selben Repo quasi parallel unterschiedliche Ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das haben wir nicht eingerichtet so, also bei uns in unserem Projekt Projekt unterstützt. Genau, genau. Genau. Das ist noch nicht, aber genau das kann das. Und was ich halt aber auch gemacht habe, ist zum Beispiel, zum einen lohnt sich das halt Backend- und Frontendtrennung, weil wir das in 2 unterschiedlichen Projekten haben, dadurch sowieso.\n\nAber gleichzeitig kannst Du auch sagen, hey, das mach ich jetzt grade lokal und Du lässt aber auch 'n Cloud Agent laufen, der das dann halt parallel noch mal 'n anderen Task machst. Und ich muss sagen, es war es war schon krass, was das fürn Productivity Boost war am Ende. Natürlich dann ist staut sich das auch so, okay, ist alles fertig und dann dann drüber schauen, ist noch mal eine andere Geschichte. Aber es ist ist wirklich cool. Es ist cool gemacht.\n\nOkay. Du bist irgendwie nicht so überzeugt beim heute. Also. Weil der so so Standard ist, richtig?\n\nSpeaker 0: Nee, also ich nutz die Kodex App nicht, deswegen weiß ich nicht, was da so in letzter Zeit passiert ist, aber gefühlt wär das ja so letztes Jahr son Pick of the day gewesen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ich weiß. Also schon\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber vielleicht einfach bisschen spät zu der Party.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, deswegen, ich hätte auch 'n anderen Big of the day, aber auch das ist so 5 Jahre alt, aber es ist halt so, weil's für mich Aktualität hat irgendwie.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, wenn Du damit grade zufrieden bist, ist ja wohl okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab sie ja ganz Zeit nicht genutzt und jetzt nutzt die Kodex App und jetzt ist eben Ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: schön, da reden wir auch noch mal separat drüber. Aber mein Pick ist gleich noch älter, aber ich wollte erst Olaf fragen, ob er was dabeihat. Ich\n\nSpeaker 2: fass vielleicht noch mal zusammen. Grade wegen der KI lohnt es sich noch mal mehr, Informatik zu studieren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Da ist auch nichts hinzuzufügen, ja. Mein Pick of the day ist, kommt aus der, eigentlich so aus den Neunzigern vielleicht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aha.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber hat damit zu tun, dass\n\nSpeaker 1: Ach so, und warte, und kritisiert nicht meinen gestorben ist, vorbei. Sorry, ich\n\nSpeaker 0: bin da drüber gestolpert, als Sam Neil gestorben ist. Das wollt ich sagen. Wow, okay. So, Sam Neil, Schauspieler, Jurassic Park.\n\nSpeaker 1: Jo, hab ich letztens mitbekommen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, und auch hier Jagd auf roter Oktober und so was alles. Aber Jurassic Park. Und wie immer, wenn so berühmte Schauspieler sterben, gibt's hier irgendwie Berichte darüber und hier und bla bla. Und da ist ein Blogartikel zu mir reingespült worden, den ich jetzt empfehlen möchte. Ich verlinken das in\n\nSpeaker 1: den Shownotes. Der ist aus den Neunzigern?\n\nSpeaker 0: Nein, der Blogartikel nicht, aber Jurassic Park ist aus den Neunzigern.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Der Blogartikel arbeitet quasi Jurassic Park ab und zwar jede Szene, in der Computervorkommen und nimmt sich quasi jeden dieser Computer vor und sagt\n\nSpeaker 1: so, hey, was\n\nSpeaker 0: war das eigentlich für eine Kiste und was läuft da grade drauf und in jedem Detail, also jedes Stück Hardware, was Du in diesem Film siehst, ist so quasi beschrieben, was natürlich auf der einen Seite heute son bisschen lächerlich wirkt mit, oh, der hatte irgendwie 2 Megabyte ran diese Kiste und die war ultrateuer und die haben sie extra von irgendwie Xerox gemietet für diese Szene Jurassic Park und bla bla bla. Aber das ist gar nicht das so, sondern er spricht halt auch so in dem Blogartikel darüber so, was ist das fürn UI, ne, wieso war das damals so State of the Art, was hat man sich dabei gedacht? Und das fand ich einfach eine sehr coole Art irgendwie Kulturgut aufzuarbeiten vielleicht, ja. Und wer son bisschen sich für so was interessiert oder einfach 'n Jurassic Park Fan ist oder einfach noch mal ans Daniele denken möchte, keine Ahnung, kannst dir diesen Blogartikel gerne mal angucken. Wir verlinken den.\n\nEs macht Spaß zu lesen. Er ist 'n bisschen lang, weil in Jurassic Park viele Computer vorkommen, wer hätte das gedacht. Ja. Aber es macht Spaß.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber es ist schon interessant, auch sone Reise durch die Zeit dann wirklich. So ist irgendwie so, was war damals eigentlich so das Ding? Find ich auch wahnsinnig interessant. Hier irgendwann bei meinen Eltern hab ich vor Jahren auch noch damals irgendwie son alten Mediamarkt hier so sone Zeitungsbroschüre gesehen, wo son 64 Megabyte USB Stick für 200 Euro oder so beworben wurde. Und dann dacht so, alter, ist das krass.\n\nUnd das ist, wenn man das aus heutiger Objektive betrachtet, immer dann sehr interessant, wie es dann vor 8 Jahren Weil Du grade, weil\n\nSpeaker 0: Du 200 Euro gesagt hast, also inzwischen gehen's\n\nSpeaker 2: ja wiederholt, die Speicherpreise. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Hier ist Steven Spielberg und so, ist ja auch dafür bekannt, dass sie quasi nur realistische Effekte haben wollten und alles, ja cool. Und alle diese Computer waren halt auch echt, so. Das heißt, nicht so wie bei manchen anderen Science Fiction Filmen irgendwie viel Sperrholz und Plastik und LEDs irgendwie zusammengetackert. Und am Ende macht er in dem Blogartikel auch sone Rechnung auf, was all diese Kisten quasi damals gekostet haben zusammen und was sie quasi heute äquivalent kosten würden, Inflationsbereich, ist auch abgefahren.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, saß da, saß\n\nSpeaker 1: da, saß da, was da dem Betrag?\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich weiß nicht, ob ich gerade sagen hab, aber was waren\n\nSpeaker 1: Sechsstellig, siebenstellig. Sehr hoch, sechsstellig\n\nSpeaker 0: und heute sehr hoch siebenstellig, sag ich. Ja, ja,\n\nSpeaker 1: ja, krass. Nee. Gut.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das war mein Beitrag für heute. Sehr cool. Also durch die Vergangenheit. Wunderbar. Damit auf jeden Fall danke Olaf\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Für die Zeit, dass Du extra hergekommen bist, so ins Studio für das Gespräch.\n\nSpeaker 2: Bin gern gekommen, bedanke mich für die Einladung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das hat sich auf jeden Fall gelohnt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das es war auch richtig cool, mal wieder hier alle im Studio zu sein, dass irgendwie von anderen Ich mag das\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich mag\n\nSpeaker 1: das sehr gerne.\n\nSpeaker 0: Die meisten Gäste schaffen das ja nicht zeitlich oder von der Distanz her vorbeizuschauen. Von daher wissen wir das super zu schätzen. Danke Dave, dass Du dabei warst. Danke für alle, die zugehört, zugeschaut haben. Wir hoffen, es hat euch geholfen.\n\nVielleicht die Entscheidung für den Informatikstudiengang zu treffen, vielleicht, wenn ihr schon in der Informatikseite noch mal son bisschen Noch Motivation noch mal raus rauszuholen oder wenn ihr wie Dave und ich schon bisschen länger drin setzt, also boah, ist ja alles 'n bisschen anders als es bei mir früher vielleicht war. Kann man ja auch mal 'n bisschen wertschätzen. Wunderbar und damit bleibt uns nichts anderes sagen als bis bald und wir hören, sehen, sprechen uns nächste Woche.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nächste Woche. Macht's\n\nSpeaker 0: gut. Tschau. Tschau.",[33966,33971,33978,33985,33994,34001,34008,34015,34024,34031,34041,34053,34058,34063,34071,34075,34087,34092,34101,34107,34114,34117,34121,34127,34131,34135,34144,34153,34165,34172,34185,34198,34203,34214,34219,34228,34232,34241,34244,34255,34260,34270,34278,34283,34296,34303,34307,34313,34318,34321,34325,34332,34341,34345,34353,34358,34366,34378,34381,34394,34407,34416,34429,34437,34441,34453,34460,34464,34477,34490,34501,34514,34524,34533,34537,34550,34563,34576,34589,34600,34607,34612,34623,34628,34640,34644,34648,34654,34663,34667,34671,34678,34683,34694,34706,34719,34725,34728,34738,34742,34746,34752,34756,34760,34764,34768,34773,34777,34781,34785,34796,34804,34810,34823,34829,34836,34847,34853,34866,34879,34890,34896,34906,34912,34917,34922,34928,34939,34943,34953,34962,34965,34975,34982,34986,34992,34996,35007,35018,35022,35033,35037,35041,35048,35061,35074,35086,35090,35101,35107,35120,35131,35144,35148,35160,35166,35179,35192,35201,35214,35224,35236,35249,35259,35271,35283,35288,35301,35312,35317,35320,35329,35336,35342,35347,35358,35369,35382,35395,35404,35410,35414,35419,35422,35426,35430,35441,35452,35456,35467,35475,35488,35492,35496,35501,35505,35517,35527,35539,35545,35549,35557,35561,35567,35571,35583,35595,35601,35610,35617,35627,35631,35642,35645,35651,35661,35672,35679,35688,35700,35709,35713,35722,35729,35733,35737,35744,35748,35754,35764,35772,35778,35783,35787,35799,35805,35817,35821,35825,35831,35837,35848,35859,35865,35869,35876,35886,35890,35894,35902,35908,35920,35926,35932,35936,35944,35948,35954,35965,35978,35984,35988,35994,36003,36014,36026,36034,36039,36045,36049,36053,36057,36061,36068,36074,36081,36084,36088,36094,36104,36108,36121,36127,36131,36134,36138,36142,36154,36163,36175,36179,36183,36188,36198,36202,36206,36210,36216,36222,36228,36239,36242,36246,36250,36254,36258,36262,36266,36278,36287,36292],{"sentences":33967,"speaker":198,"num_words":33970,"start":195,"end":323},[33968],{"text":33969,"start":195,"end":323},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem neuen Deep Dive hier in der Programmierbar für euch aus dem Studio in Badnauheim, hier am Start der Janen Gregor im Getriebe und mit mir im Studio.",33,{"sentences":33972,"speaker":174,"num_words":33977,"start":327,"end":359},[33973,33975],{"text":33974,"start":327,"end":345},"Der Dave aka David Krusitzky.",{"text":33976,"start":350,"end":359},"Moin, was geht?",8,{"sentences":33979,"speaker":198,"num_words":33984,"start":364,"end":505},[33980,33982],{"text":33981,"start":364,"end":384},"Schön, dass Du da bist, Dave.",{"text":33983,"start":384,"end":505},"Wir haben heute ein Thema, mit dem ich quasi gar nicht so viel am Hut hab, denn wir wollen heute über das Informatikstudium sprechen und wir vielleicht längere Hörerinnen schon wissen, ich hab kein Informatikstudium",41,{"sentences":33986,"speaker":174,"num_words":33993,"start":507,"end":604},[33987,33989,33991],{"text":33988,"start":507,"end":514},"in der Tasche.",{"text":33990,"start":514,"end":526},"Das ist schon krass.",{"text":33992,"start":526,"end":604},"Also ne, man muss überlegen, was das mit unserer Kredibilität macht, dass Du als quasi fast Haupthost kein Informatik Background hast.",28,{"sentences":33995,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":604,"end":630},[33996,33998],{"text":33997,"start":604,"end":618},"Mein Lebensmotto ist.",{"text":33999,"start":623,"end":630},"Ja, aber",5,{"sentences":34002,"speaker":174,"num_words":34007,"start":630,"end":695},[34003,34005],{"text":34004,"start":630,"end":672},"es zeigt ja auch, wie weltoffen wir hier sind bei der Programmierwahl.",{"text":34006,"start":672,"end":695},"Das ist ja auch vielleicht eigentlich was Schönes.",20,{"sentences":34009,"speaker":198,"num_words":34007,"start":698,"end":765},[34010,34012,34013],{"text":34011,"start":698,"end":723},"Auch für Quereinsteiger geöffnet in der in der Programmierwahl.",{"text":729,"start":727,"end":728},{"text":34014,"start":731,"end":765},"Dave hat immerhin ein Studium hinter sich, sogar anderthalb sozusagen.",{"sentences":34016,"speaker":174,"num_words":34023,"start":769,"end":833},[34017,34019,34021],{"text":34018,"start":769,"end":782},"Ja, 2 sogar, oder?",{"text":34020,"start":782,"end":800},"Oder soll man mit anderthalb.",{"text":34022,"start":800,"end":833},"Ach so, mein Master nur eine Hälfte zählt?",17,{"sentences":34025,"speaker":198,"num_words":34030,"start":833,"end":872},[34026,34028],{"text":34027,"start":833,"end":863},"Nein, Du hast hast Du nicht vorher was anderes?",{"text":34029,"start":863,"end":872},"Ah ja,",11,{"sentences":34032,"speaker":174,"num_words":34007,"start":872,"end":945},[34033,34035,34036,34038,34040],{"text":34034,"start":872,"end":896},"ja, ja, okay, darüber reden wir nicht.",{"text":902,"start":896,"end":900},{"text":34037,"start":900,"end":930},"Was kommt denn in 'nem Special mal vor?",{"text":34039,"start":930,"end":941},"Ja, ja, stimmt.",{"text":947,"start":941,"end":945},{"sentences":34042,"speaker":198,"num_words":34052,"start":945,"end":1071},[34043,34044,34046,34048,34050],{"text":902,"start":945,"end":949},{"text":34045,"start":949,"end":957},"Dave verliert.",{"text":34047,"start":957,"end":1019},"Aber weil das bei uns allen auch schon son bisschen länger her ist, haben wir uns noch einen Gast eingeladen.",{"text":34049,"start":1019,"end":1051},"Wir haben nämlich heute auch dabei, den Professor Olaf Verden.",{"text":34051,"start":1051,"end":1071},"Hallo Olaf, schön, dass Du da bist.",40,{"sentences":34054,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34057,"start":1071,"end":1098},[34055],{"text":34056,"start":1071,"end":1098},"Ja, hallo, vielen Dank für die Einladung.",7,{"sentences":34059,"speaker":198,"num_words":34062,"start":1101,"end":1206},[34060],{"text":34061,"start":1101,"end":1206},"Wir wollten nämlich mit jemandem über das Informatikstudium sprechen, der tatsächlich jeden Tag damit zu tun hat und nicht, wie Dave und ich das letzte Mal eine Uni von innen gesehen hat vor 15 Jahren oder so.",37,{"sentences":34064,"speaker":174,"num_words":34070,"start":1206,"end":1317},[34065,34066,34068],{"text":1212,"start":1206,"end":1209},{"text":34067,"start":1214,"end":1246},"Bei mir, oh nee, 2021 war's, glaub ich.",{"text":34069,"start":1246,"end":1317},"Meine letzte Vorlesung war 2021 tatsächlich und dann für die Abschlussarbeit bin ich aber noch mal hingegangen, 2022, also Bist",29,{"sentences":34072,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":1317,"end":1335},[34073],{"text":34074,"start":1317,"end":1335},"halt 'n bisschen jünger als",{"sentences":34076,"speaker":174,"num_words":34086,"start":1338,"end":1420},[34077,34079,34081,34083,34084],{"text":34078,"start":1338,"end":1349},"Ja, 'n bisschen jünger.",{"text":34080,"start":1349,"end":1378},"15 Jahre ist es aber nicht bei dir her, oder?",{"text":34082,"start":1381,"end":1391},"Na ja, doch.",{"text":1397,"start":1391,"end":1395},{"text":34085,"start":1399,"end":1420},"Ich hinterfrag halt, wie alt Du bist.",25,{"sentences":34088,"speaker":174,"num_words":34091,"start":1420,"end":1443},[34089],{"text":34090,"start":1420,"end":1443},"Sorry, okay, tut gar nichts Thema.",6,{"sentences":34093,"speaker":198,"num_words":34100,"start":1447,"end":1615},[34094,34096,34098],{"text":34095,"start":1447,"end":1507},"Olaf, wir haben dich eingeladen, weil wir uns kennengelernt haben auf der Deflan Konferenz, wo Du einen Vortrag gehalten hast.",{"text":34097,"start":1507,"end":1572},"Wenn Du nicht über die Kongresse dieser Welt hingelst, bist Du eigentlich an der DHBW Professor und Lehrster und bist sogar Studiengangsleitung.",{"text":34099,"start":1576,"end":1615},"Hast Du mir gar nicht erzählt, hab ich da auf deine Internetseite gesehen?",55,{"sentences":34102,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34052,"start":1615,"end":1742},[34103,34105],{"text":34104,"start":1615,"end":1636},"Ja, das bin ich in der Tat.",{"text":34106,"start":1641,"end":1742},"Seit 2002 bin ich an der DHBW am Campus Hopp tätig und seit 2006 2007 auch Studiengangsleiter für, ja, zunächst hieß es angewandte Informatik und inzwischen heißt der Studiengang dann nur noch Informatik.",{"sentences":34108,"speaker":198,"num_words":34113,"start":1745,"end":1847},[34109,34111],{"text":34110,"start":1745,"end":1777},"Damit bist Du der perfekte Kandidat, heute über das Thema zu sprechen.",{"text":34112,"start":1777,"end":1847},"Wir wollen nämlich darüber sprechen, wie sich der Studiengang gewandelt hat beziehungsweise gerade dabei ist zu wandeln und welchen Einfluss künstlicher Intelligenz darauf hat",36,{"sentences":34115,"speaker":1077,"num_words":174,"start":1849,"end":1850},[34116],{"text":202,"start":1849,"end":1850},{"sentences":34118,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":1850,"end":1864},[34119],{"text":34120,"start":1850,"end":1864},"darüber wollen wir einmal sprechen.",{"sentences":34122,"speaker":174,"num_words":34070,"start":1864,"end":1954},[34123,34125],{"text":34124,"start":1864,"end":1900},"Kurz noch mal kurz noch mal vielleicht zur Aufgabe zum Studigangsleiter.",{"text":34126,"start":1904,"end":1954},"Du gestaltest ja auch aktiv das Curriculum mit und was alles in 'nem Studiengang dran an Themen vorkommt.",{"sentences":34128,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34091,"start":1958,"end":1977},[34129],{"text":34130,"start":1958,"end":1977},"Ja, das ist so richtig, genau.",{"sentences":34132,"speaker":174,"num_words":34057,"start":1977,"end":1998},[34133],{"text":34134,"start":1977,"end":1998},"Okay, dann dann ist es ja perfekt.",{"sentences":34136,"speaker":198,"num_words":34143,"start":2001,"end":2084},[34137,34139,34141],{"text":34138,"start":2001,"end":2033},"Wie immer die Gäste bei uns, einfach ein 1 perfekter Witze.",{"text":34140,"start":2037,"end":2056},"Olaf wird's grad 'n bisschen unangenehm.",{"text":34142,"start":2056,"end":2084},"Ich weiß schon, wir legen die Latte immer höher.",26,{"sentences":34145,"speaker":174,"num_words":34152,"start":2088,"end":2128},[34146,34148,34150],{"text":34147,"start":2088,"end":2104},"Also, ich wär das 1.",{"text":34149,"start":2104,"end":2120},"Mal Profi in der Premiere.",{"text":34151,"start":2120,"end":2128},"Ja, wunderbar.",12,{"sentences":34154,"speaker":198,"num_words":34164,"start":2132,"end":2530},[34155,34156,34158,34160,34162],{"text":34151,"start":2132,"end":2137},{"text":34157,"start":2137,"end":2187},"Vielleicht zum Einstieg, ich kann mir vorstellen, dass wir dieses Gespräch so in 3 Teile aufteilen.",{"text":34159,"start":2187,"end":2201},"Ich glaub, der 1.",{"text":34161,"start":2201,"end":2285},"Teil ist son bisschen darüber zu sprechen, mit welcher vielleicht veränderten Erwartungshaltung, Einstellungen im Moment studierende, junge Menschen an die Uni kommen, was sich da geändert hat.",{"text":34163,"start":2289,"end":2530},"Dann vielleicht auch, wie sich der Studiengang selbst geändert hat, wie sich Lehre geändert hat, wie sich Prüfungen geändert haben, wie man veränderten Realitäten einfach gerecht werden kann und am Ende vielleicht noch mit 'nem ganz kleinen Teil son Ausblick darauf geben, grade mit modernen Bachelorstudiengängen will ja Uni auch immer berufsvorbereiten sein und welchen Realitäten man sich denn da jetzt stellen muss, wenn sich das Berufsfeld grade so sehr ändert, wie die Uni darauf eben auch reagieren kann, muss oder eben vielleicht auch nicht, so.",135,{"sentences":34166,"speaker":198,"num_words":34171,"start":2532,"end":2593},[34167,34169],{"text":34168,"start":2532,"end":2535},"Meine 1.",{"text":34170,"start":2535,"end":2593},"Frage vielleicht gleich son bisschen überspitzt formuliert zum Anfang ist, kommt über heute kommt heute überhaupt noch jemand zum Informatikstudium?",22,{"sentences":34173,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34184,"start":2597,"end":2836},[34174,34176,34178,34180,34182],{"text":34175,"start":2597,"end":2616},"Ja, in der Tat eine spannende Frage.",{"text":34177,"start":2619,"end":2639},"Es ist im Moment schon ein bisschen schwierig.",{"text":34179,"start":2643,"end":2692},"Die Schülerinnen, Schüler, die grundsätzlich sich dafür interessieren, sind schon auch 'n Stück weit verunsichert.",{"text":34181,"start":2695,"end":2769},"Das ist getrieben durch auch einige Aussagen in der Presse, dass ja, ich sag da auch mal jetzt überspitzt, die Informatik schafft sich selber ab.",{"text":34183,"start":2769,"end":2836},"Wir haben irgendwie eine gewisse Menge Tools und Techniken geschaffen und die verselbstständigt sich jetzt und übernehmen dann zukünftig die Softwareentwicklung.",76,{"sentences":34186,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34197,"start":2840,"end":3161},[34187,34189,34191,34193,34195],{"text":34188,"start":2840,"end":2862},"Das, denke ich, ist keineswegs der Fall.",{"text":34190,"start":2866,"end":3050},"Das, was da eben KI generative KI heute kann, ist ja gewissen Code umsetzen, den auf vielleicht einen gewissen Style überprüfen, gewisse Tests durchführen und so weiter, aber den großen Überblick, das Big Picture über die Gesamtarchitektur, über die Systeme, das ist etwas, was schon noch immer personengesteuert sein muss und auch, ich denke, auch dauerhaft sein wird.",{"text":34192,"start":3054,"end":3093},"Also irgendwie son Human Insel Loop Ansatz, der dort entsprechend verfolgt wird.",{"text":34194,"start":3096,"end":3149},"Ebenso muss natürlich abgeschätzt werden können, wo ist der KI Einsatz sinnvoll und wo ist er das auch nicht?",{"text":34196,"start":3149,"end":3161},"Wo wo sind Grenzen?",100,{"sentences":34199,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34202,"start":3165,"end":3203},[34200],{"text":34201,"start":3165,"end":3203},"Auch das ist eine wichtige Aufgabe, die auch in Zukunft Informatikerinnen und Informatiker",13,{"sentences":34204,"speaker":198,"num_words":34213,"start":3206,"end":3413},[34205,34207,34209,34211],{"text":34206,"start":3206,"end":3212},"umsetzen müssen.",{"text":34208,"start":3215,"end":3225},"Vielleicht da einmal kurz nachzuhaken.",{"text":34210,"start":3229,"end":3376},"Das ist ja eigentlich vielleicht nur eine Erweiterung von dem, was wir ganz lange in der Pädagogik so Medienkompetenz genannt haben, ne, auch einfach zu wissen, wann kann man soner Maschine 1 anonymen Quelle irgendwie vertrauen, wann muss man selber 'n bisschen hinterfragen, man muss dann selber 'n bisschen Hirn noch anwenden.",{"text":34212,"start":3380,"end":3413},"Wie wie kompetent kommen da Leute im Moment von der Schule zu euch?",72,{"sentences":34215,"speaker":174,"num_words":34057,"start":3417,"end":3439},[34216,34217],{"text":902,"start":3417,"end":3418},{"text":34218,"start":3423,"end":3439},"Wirkt erst mal nicht über die",{"sentences":34220,"speaker":198,"num_words":34227,"start":3442,"end":3471},[34221,34223,34225],{"text":34222,"start":3442,"end":3449},"Ja, die kommen.",{"text":34224,"start":3449,"end":3462},"Na ja, ja, ja.",{"text":34226,"start":3462,"end":3471},"Und sind",9,{"sentences":34229,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":3471,"end":3487},[34230],{"text":34231,"start":3471,"end":3487},"auch ganz schnell wieder weg.",{"sentences":34233,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34240,"start":3490,"end":3616},[34234,34236,34238],{"text":34235,"start":3490,"end":3500},"Das ist 'n anderes Thema.",{"text":34237,"start":3502,"end":3590},"Ja, es ist in der Tat so, dass im Bereich Informatik auch immer noch Studienanfänger zu uns kommen und auch zu anderen Hochschulen, Universitäten mit auch falschen Erwartungshaltung oder falschen Vorstellungen.",{"text":34239,"start":3595,"end":3616},"Irgendwie ich kann alles an meinem Handy machen",44,{"sentences":34242,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":3618,"end":3619},[34243],{"text":781,"start":3618,"end":3619},{"sentences":34245,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34254,"start":3619,"end":3906},[34246,34248,34250,34252],{"text":34247,"start":3619,"end":3764},"ich bin, ja, kann ich hier bei 'ner beim Unternehmen, das Spielesoftware herstellt, kaum sagen, aber jemand, der besonders gut in Computergames ist, das ist noch kein Alleinstellungsmerkmal und Skill, unbedingt Das kannst Du auch hier gerne sagen, zu studieren und so weiter.",{"text":34249,"start":3768,"end":3790},"Und das war jetzt aber alles gar nicht die Frage.",{"text":34251,"start":3790,"end":3860},"Die Frage war die die die die Medienkompetenz, die ja, das das auch kritische Reflektieren und so weiter, was auch 'n ganz zentraler Skill ist.",{"text":34253,"start":3863,"end":3906},"Der ist stark unterschiedlich ausgeprägt, kann man einfach nur sagen bei den Studienanfängerinnen und Anfängern.",93,{"sentences":34256,"speaker":174,"num_words":34259,"start":3910,"end":3950},[34257],{"text":34258,"start":3910,"end":3950},"Wie eigentlich auch in 'nem in der Durchschnitt der Bevölkerung, ne, muss man ja auch sagen.",16,{"sentences":34261,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34240,"start":3950,"end":4090},[34262,34263,34264,34266,34268],{"text":902,"start":3950,"end":3953},{"text":729,"start":3953,"end":3957},{"text":34265,"start":3959,"end":4006},"Ja, den Gedanken davor noch mal abzuschließen, was müssen Informatikerin, Informatik in der Zukunft auch noch tun?",{"text":34267,"start":4010,"end":4034},"Die ganzen KI Systeme funktionieren ja nicht alle irgendwie.",{"text":34269,"start":4038,"end":4090},"Dass das irgendwo in USA oder China ja konfektioniert wird und dann immer zur Verfügung steht.",{"sentences":34271,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34184,"start":4090,"end":4332},[34272,34274,34276],{"text":34273,"start":4090,"end":4193},"Das muss ja auch irgendwo ja individuell zum Beispiel nachtrainiert werden oder irgendwie aus einzelnen Komponenten ein KI System zusammengestöpselt werden, was dann auch passgenau ist fürs eigene Team, Unternehmen oder Umfeld.",{"text":34275,"start":4197,"end":4265},"Das wären so die inhaltlichen, fachlichen Gründe, warum sich 'n Informatikstudium immer noch lohnt und es gibt auch noch mal handfeste ökonomische Gründe.",{"text":34277,"start":4268,"end":4332},"Zum einen gibt's immer noch 'n riesen Fachkräftemangel, ja, je nachdem, wer die Studie durchgeführt hat und wie man zählt, aber",{"sentences":34279,"speaker":174,"num_words":34091,"start":4334,"end":4353},[34280,34282],{"text":34281,"start":4334,"end":4350},"Und was Fachkraft heißt, Ja.",{"text":4356,"start":4352,"end":4353},{"sentences":34284,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34295,"start":4358,"end":4631},[34285,34287,34289,34291,34293],{"text":34286,"start":4358,"end":4368},"Genau, genau, ja.",{"text":34288,"start":4371,"end":4478},"Aber Bitkom spricht immer noch von ungefähr 100000 fehlenden Fachkräften in in Deutschland, Wenn dann 'n paar weniger Informatiker, Informatikerin benötigt werden in der Zukunft, kann man vielleicht diese Lücke da auch entsprechend gut schließen.",{"text":34290,"start":4481,"end":4593},"Dann ist es so, dass im Moment im gesamten technischen Umfeld durch die Konjunktur, insbesondere die Probleme in der Automobilbranche als ja der Branche in in Deutschland es gewisse Schwierigkeiten gibt, den Berufseinstieg gut zu meistern.",{"text":34292,"start":4596,"end":4611},"Das wird ja aber auch wieder vergehen.",{"text":34294,"start":4614,"end":4631},"Das wird auch wieder besser werden die Zeiten.",89,{"sentences":34297,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34302,"start":4635,"end":4873},[34298,34300],{"text":34299,"start":4635,"end":4769},"Und 'n weiterer letzter Punkt dazu ist noch, wer jetzt sein Studium aufnimmt diesen oder nächsten Herbst, der wird ja dem Arbeitsmarkt dann erst zu Beginn bis Mitte der Dreißigerjahre zur Verfügung stehen und da laufen wir ja in eine riesen Verrentungswelle in Deutschland hinein.",{"text":34301,"start":4772,"end":4873},"Ab 20 29 gehen die starken Boomer Jahrgänge dann langsam in Rente sukzessive und ich denke, gerade im IT Bereich ist das vielleicht noch mal machen dann machen dann dort entsprechende Stellen frei.",78,{"sentences":34304,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":4877,"end":4884},[34305,34306],{"text":4881,"start":4877,"end":4878},{"text":4881,"start":4883,"end":4884},{"sentences":34308,"speaker":174,"num_words":34152,"start":4884,"end":4927},[34309,34311],{"text":34310,"start":4884,"end":4911},"Kurze Frage, zu welcher Generation an Informatik gehörst Du?",{"text":34312,"start":4911,"end":4927},"Achtzigerjahre, Neunzigerjahre, Zweitausender?",{"sentences":34314,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34057,"start":4931,"end":4951},[34315,34317],{"text":34316,"start":4931,"end":4947},"Ich hab 89 angefangen zu studieren.",{"text":947,"start":4947,"end":4951},{"sentences":34319,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":4954,"end":4955},[34320],{"text":4881,"start":4954,"end":4955},{"sentences":34322,"speaker":198,"num_words":34152,"start":4958,"end":4990},[34323],{"text":34324,"start":4958,"end":4990},"Deine Altersfrage am Anfang zu machen, da bin ich grade geboren worden.",{"sentences":34326,"speaker":174,"num_words":34202,"start":4993,"end":5040},[34327,34328,34330],{"text":4997,"start":4993,"end":4994},{"text":34329,"start":4999,"end":5015},"Ah, okay, crazy, crazy, okay.",{"text":34331,"start":5018,"end":5040},"Ja, son ist 'n Dreigeneration Treff hier.",{"sentences":34333,"speaker":198,"num_words":34340,"start":5040,"end":5224},[34334,34335,34337,34339],{"text":902,"start":5040,"end":5044},{"text":34336,"start":5048,"end":5090},"Du hast eingangs auch gesagt, dass man schon merkt, dass jetzt weniger Leute kommen grade so, ja.",{"text":34338,"start":5093,"end":5219},"Ist das eher ein generelles Zurücktreten von Informatik als Ganzes oder ist das eher ein, ich weiche vielleicht aus auf so was wie Wirtschaftsinformatik, Medieninformatik, wo ich glaube, dass der menschliche Faktor vielleicht noch 'n bisschen stärker ausgespielt werden kann versus der klassischen reinen Informatik?",{"text":902,"start":5223,"end":5224},64,{"sentences":34342,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34113,"start":5227,"end":5330},[34343],{"text":34344,"start":5227,"end":5330},"Nein, also ich denke, der Trend ist ist da gleich, also zumindest bei uns an der Hochschule, Wirtschaftsinformatik haben wir auch im im Angebot und die Kolleginnen und Kollegen dort haben ähnliche Entwicklungen bei den Anfängerzahlen.",{"sentences":34346,"speaker":174,"num_words":34197,"start":5333,"end":5601},[34347,34349,34351],{"text":34348,"start":5333,"end":5339},"Okay, okay.",{"text":34350,"start":5343,"end":5477},"Mich würd mich würd grad noch mal interessieren, weil wir jetzt ja auch gerade so am Anfang gesagt haben, son bisschen die die Sorgen der Studierenden, ne, grade auch so durch die Medien, kennzeichnet, oh, Informatik schafft sich selbst ab und wir benötigen das in der Zukunft nicht mehr so stark.",{"text":34352,"start":5477,"end":5601},"Gibt es aber vielleicht auch die umgekehrte Seite, wo sich Leute jetzt vielleicht nachm Abi so sehr fühlen und sagen so, oh, jetzt gibt ja AI, ich mach jetzt dieses Informatikstudio mit links und dann vielleicht auf da noch mal auch falsche Erwartungen dann treffen zu Beginn?",{"sentences":34354,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34227,"start":5605,"end":5630},[34355,34357],{"text":34356,"start":5605,"end":5626},"Ist mir jetzt nicht in größerer Zahl begegnet.",{"text":4881,"start":5629,"end":5630},{"sentences":34359,"speaker":198,"num_words":33970,"start":5630,"end":5716},[34360,34362,34364],{"text":34361,"start":5630,"end":5663},"Das sind vielleicht aber auch nicht die, die das so propagieren, ne.",{"text":34363,"start":5663,"end":5688},"Also die gehen ja vielleicht jetzt nicht in die 1.",{"text":34365,"start":5688,"end":5716},"Vorlesung und sagen so, also, das mach ich alles mit links.",{"sentences":34367,"speaker":174,"num_words":34377,"start":5716,"end":5934},[34368,34369,34371,34373,34375],{"text":902,"start":5716,"end":5720},{"text":34370,"start":5720,"end":5813},"Aber nee, aber so ist vielleicht nicht nur Informatik selbst, aber so generell, dass Leute sich das eher noch mal zutrauen, so von wegen, hey, ich hab jetzt die riesige Hilfe dadurch so.",{"text":34372,"start":5813,"end":5835},"Son Studium schaff ich jetzt noch mal einfacher.",{"text":34374,"start":5839,"end":5910},"Nach sonem Gedanken, den ich jetzt auch hatte, so, neben dem Beruf noch mal 'n Studium machen, weil mit der AI kann ich's ja easy.",{"text":34376,"start":5914,"end":5934},"Aber sei mal dahingestellt, wie gut das funktioniert.",75,{"sentences":34379,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":5937,"end":5938},[34380],{"text":902,"start":5937,"end":5938},{"sentences":34382,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34393,"start":5940,"end":6322},[34383,34385,34387,34389,34391],{"text":34384,"start":5940,"end":6018},"Was ich denke, was wichtig ist nach wie vor, also abgeleitet aus der Argumentation von eben, warum sich's noch lohnt, was was benötigen zukünftige Informatikerin, Informatikern Skills?",{"text":34386,"start":6018,"end":6114},"Ich denke, dass gerade im technischen Kernbereich, ja, sehr gutes, sehr tiefes technisches Wissen notwendig sein wird, auch in der Zukunft über Programmierung, über Software, Datenbanken, Netzwerk, Betriebssysteme.",{"text":34388,"start":6118,"end":6213},"Ja, eigentlich den ganzen Stack hoch und runter wird man einfach auch die Komplexität entsprechend erfassen müssen und auch immer diesen kommunikativen Weg vom, ja, vom Problem zum Programm, der alte Spruch.",{"text":34390,"start":6216,"end":6294},"Was, da hat irgendjemand eine Idee hier bei euch, oh, da könnte man vielleicht mal 'n Game machen oder da könnte man irgendwie eine andere Welt erschaffen oder Ähnliches.",{"text":34392,"start":6298,"end":6322},"Das ist ja manchmal etwas unscharf noch die anfängliche Idee.",126,{"sentences":34395,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34406,"start":6326,"end":6598},[34396,34398,34400,34402,34404],{"text":34397,"start":6326,"end":6396},"Das erst mal zu fokussieren, zu ordnen, dann schließlich runterzubrechen, dann irgendwann mal prototypisch umzusetzen und dann zu schauen, trägt das auch dauerhaft?",{"text":34399,"start":6400,"end":6410},"Macht das überhaupt Sinn?",{"text":34401,"start":6413,"end":6474},"Das denke ich, ist ist nach wie vor sind so die zentralen fachlichen Skills, die dann natürlich jetzt auch angereichert werden, zusätzliche KI Skills.",{"text":34403,"start":6478,"end":6552},"Denkt der Informatiker, die Informatikerin muss da wirklich auch in den KI Verfahren, ja, den berühmten Blick unter die Haube haben und sehr tiefes Wissen drüber haben.",{"text":34405,"start":6557,"end":6598},"Einfaches Beispiel, es gibt irgendein Dataset aus 'ner Fachabteilung und da soll klassifiziert werden.",92,{"sentences":34408,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34415,"start":6601,"end":6823},[34409,34411,34413],{"text":34410,"start":6601,"end":6648},"Da wer ein bisschen geschickt den prompt formuliert, kriegt auch ohne Programmierkenntnisse schnell ein Resultat.",{"text":34412,"start":6652,"end":6748},"Aber ja, was heißt das jetzt, wenn da irgendein Score kommt, irgendeine Metrik, die diese Klassifikation beschreibt oder ist ein bestimmtes Verfahren überhaupt auf diesem Dataset angemessen anwendbar oder nicht und Ähnliches.",{"text":34414,"start":6751,"end":6823},"Das sind dann alles, denke ich, Fragestellungen, bei denen sich dann schon die die tiefe Fachexpertise immer noch auch in der Zukunft abheben wird vom allgemeinen Vibecoder.",74,{"sentences":34417,"speaker":174,"num_words":34428,"start":6827,"end":7132},[34418,34420,34422,34424,34426],{"text":34419,"start":6827,"end":6846},"Kurz da noch mal nachgehackt, von wegen Fachexpertise.",{"text":34421,"start":6850,"end":7070},"Das klang aber für mich jetzt weniger nach 'ner technischen Tiefe, die da verlangt wird, sondern eher vielleicht mehr spezifischer Domainwissen, weil Du gesagt hast so, irgendwie man muss wissen so, ist das Datenset dafür geeignet oder wie interpretiert man die Daten und so, dass es also eigentlich gar nicht so dieses Technische ist, was da relevant ist, sondern viel mehr doch diese Domäne, was auch Jan grad am Anfang meinte, so von wegen diese Bindestrichinformatiker, so haben wir die immer genannt.",{"text":34423,"start":7070,"end":7085},"Erst lass nicht da.",{"text":34425,"start":7085,"end":7111},"Und ein Professor auch immer, die Bindestrichinformatiker gehatet.",{"text":34427,"start":7111,"end":7132},"Da sind sie auch keine richtigen Informatiker.",109,{"sentences":34430,"speaker":174,"num_words":34436,"start":7132,"end":7197},[34431,34433,34434],{"text":34432,"start":7132,"end":7148},"Ich war so 1 zum Beispiel.",{"text":902,"start":7148,"end":7152},{"text":34435,"start":7152,"end":7197},"Nee, aber genau, also dass eher dieses Domainwissen wichtig ist, aber gar nicht mehr dieses technische Tiefe.",24,{"sentences":34438,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":7197,"end":7204},[34439],{"text":34440,"start":7197,"end":7204},"Ja, ich",{"sentences":34442,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34452,"start":7204,"end":7684},[34443,34445,34447,34449,34451],{"text":34444,"start":7204,"end":7216},"denke ich denk beides.",{"text":34446,"start":7216,"end":7349},"Also auch die technische Tiefe, wie funktioniert der Algorithmus oder auch Dinge an 'nem Dataset, die unabhängig von der Domäne sind, wenn zum Beispiel Daten sehr ungleich verteilt sind, was ich ja gerade bei Klassifikationsproblemen sehr, sehr häufig habe, ja, dass man einfach versteht, was dort entsprechend abläuft.",{"text":34448,"start":7352,"end":7429},"Aber da gebe ich dir recht, auch das Domänenwissen beziehungsweise auch die Bereitschaft, kommunikativ zu sein, auch gegenüber dann den Anwenderinnen und Anwendern insbesondere.",{"text":34450,"start":7433,"end":7681},"Das wird auch 'n zunehmender Skill sein, denn wenn es dann darum geht, KI Systeme zu bauen, dann kommt ja jeder, da kommt irgendwie HR und will damit Bewerbungsverfahren optimieren, im Marketing sowieso, im Kundenservice will man den idealen Chatbot haben und ja vielleicht am Ende muss man's auch noch den Manager erklären, das ist vielleicht dann die schwerste Aufgabe, der war am Abend vorher im Rotary Club und alle Kumpels oder nee, wie heißen die im Rotary Club, Rotary Brüder, ich weiß es nicht.",{"text":902,"start":7681,"end":7684},162,{"sentences":34454,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34459,"start":7684,"end":7734},[34455,34457],{"text":34456,"start":7684,"end":7692},"Bin ich dann.",{"text":34458,"start":7692,"end":7734},"Wir haben gesagt, oh, wir machen KI und das ist das tolle Ding und so.",18,{"sentences":34461,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":7734,"end":7746},[34462],{"text":34463,"start":7734,"end":7746},"Das brauchen wir jetzt auch.",{"sentences":34465,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34476,"start":7746,"end":7949},[34466,34468,34470,34472,34474],{"text":34467,"start":7746,"end":7805},"Und der, ja bevor man jetzt dieses, ja was ist das, Fear of Missing Out Fomo, nicht.",{"text":34469,"start":7805,"end":7850},"Dieser Effekt tritt dann auch da ein und sagt, das brauchen wir auch, machen Sie mal.",{"text":34471,"start":7850,"end":7869},"Ist egal was, aber machen Sie mal.",{"text":34473,"start":7872,"end":7926},"Und da vielleicht auch mal sagen, ja gut, es muss aber auch sinnvoll sein und der Use Case muss irgendwie da sein.",{"text":34475,"start":7926,"end":7949},"Ich denke auch das ist ein wichtiger Punkt.",70,{"sentences":34478,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34489,"start":7953,"end":8391},[34479,34481,34483,34485,34487],{"text":34480,"start":7953,"end":8069},"Und damit vielleicht auch noch mal, ich hatte eben son paar fachliche Kenntnisse gesagt, ich denke auch nach wie vor die ganzen Soft Skills, auch wenn's jetzt vielleicht 'n bisschen abgenudelt klingt, wie Selbstorganisation, Teamfähigkeit, ja, kritisches Denken hinterfragen.",{"text":34482,"start":8069,"end":8101},"Ja, gerade kritisches Denken ist ja wichtig, was da generiert worden ist.",{"text":34484,"start":8104,"end":8115},"Ist das denn überhaupt plausibel?",{"text":34486,"start":8118,"end":8148},"Ist es verantwortbar, dass wir das jetzt produktiv nehmen und so weiter?",{"text":34488,"start":8152,"end":8391},"Reflexion damit eng verbunden, die gelten nach wie vor wieder und die werden, ja, ich denke, der Job wird dort, grade auch das wieder auf deine Frage zum Domainwissen wird entsprechend dann noch kommunikativer als er schon ist oder in den in der Vergangenheit war und eben angereichert dieses KI Wissen, wie gesagt, man ist der der Vermittler, der Experte im Unternehmen hatte ich grad schon angedeutet und auch da ganz ganz wichtiger Skill, ja dieser ganze Bereich, ich nenne ihn mal Ethik und Dokumentation Compliance Automatisieren.",155,{"sentences":34491,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34100,"start":8395,"end":8564},[34492,34494,34495,34497,34499],{"text":34493,"start":8395,"end":8419},"Ja Compliance Regeln, ist das ethisch verantwortbar?",{"text":4881,"start":8423,"end":8424},{"text":34496,"start":8426,"end":8441},"Wie sieht's mitm Urheberrecht aus?",{"text":34498,"start":8441,"end":8461},"Kann man da alles problemlos irgendwie reinwerfen?",{"text":34500,"start":8464,"end":8564},"Ja, Datenschutz, KI Regulierung, branchenspezifische Einschränkungen und so weiter gibt's ja auch, dass da gewisse Dinge in zum Beispiel ja, im sicherheitskritischen Bereich, die wird man zum Beispiel nicht in in öffentlichen Systemen hochladen wollen.",{"sentences":34502,"speaker":198,"num_words":34513,"start":8567,"end":8993},[34503,34505,34507,34509,34511],{"text":34504,"start":8567,"end":8677},"Von den ganzen Fragen, die Du gerade oder die ganzen Punkte, die Du gerade genannt hast, sind ja manche eigentlich auch schon altbekannt, ja, also Dokumentationen, bisschen ethisches Hinterfragen, das haben wir auch bei anderen Technologien schon gesehen, ja.",{"text":34506,"start":8680,"end":8737},"Manches ist vielleicht jetzt 'n bisschen neuer und da würde mich interessieren, wie findet das so seinen Weg in das Curriculum bei euch?",{"text":34508,"start":8737,"end":8856},"Ja, also der KI Boom, den wir so aktuell sehen, der hat ja vielleicht so angefangen, ich sag mal, 21, 22, da gab's so frühe GPT Modelle, da haben das son paar Insider immer noch so vor sich hin benutzt.",{"text":34510,"start":8860,"end":8953},"Da wart ihr ja wahrscheinlich nicht die Ersten, die gesagt haben, boah, das wird in 5 Jahren richtig groß, lasst uns mal die ganzen Curriculum umschreiben, damit wir denn darauf vorbereitet.",{"text":34512,"start":8953,"end":8993},"Also, weil man darf ja auch nicht auf jeden Hype zu früh aufspringen, ja.",147,{"sentences":34515,"speaker":198,"num_words":34377,"start":8993,"end":9195},[34516,34518,34520,34522],{"text":34517,"start":8993,"end":9064},"Also ich kann mir vorstellen, wenn ihr 'n paar Jahre vorher auf dem Blockchain Hype drauf gesprungen wärt, ja, das hätte vielleicht nicht so gut funktioniert.",{"text":34519,"start":9067,"end":9086},"Und und wie findet sone Abwägung statt?",{"text":34521,"start":9086,"end":9140},"Also was dann konkret passiert, können wir gerne danach noch mal drüber sprechen, aber überhaupt, wie wie kommt dieser 1.",{"text":34523,"start":9140,"end":9195},"Impuls überhaupt erst mal zustande und zu sagen so, oh, da ist was, das sollten wir uns vielleicht noch mal dediziert anschauen?",{"sentences":34525,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34532,"start":9198,"end":9337},[34526,34528,34530],{"text":34527,"start":9198,"end":9253},"Ja, man muss erst mal selber die grad genannten Skills anwenden und zwar in dem Fall auch die die die Reflexion.",{"text":34529,"start":9256,"end":9280},"Ist das überhaupt so relevant, dass man darauf reagieren muss?",{"text":34531,"start":9280,"end":9337},"Du hast die Blockchain genannt und ja, da gab's ja genug Buzzwords in der IT in den letzten 20 Jahren, wenn man da",54,{"sentences":34534,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":9339,"end":9353},[34535],{"text":34536,"start":9339,"end":9353},"Jeden Monat ein neues eigentlich.",{"sentences":34538,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34549,"start":9353,"end":9674},[34539,34541,34543,34545,34547],{"text":34540,"start":9353,"end":9363},"Ja, ja, genau.",{"text":34542,"start":9363,"end":9439},"Wenn man da jedes Mal das Curriculum angepasst hätte, ja, das das wär ja gar nicht handhabbar gewesen und ja, ich denke, das ist erst mal der 1.",{"text":34544,"start":9439,"end":9479},"Schritt, dass man das wahrnimmt und nicht abtut, gerade auch bei der generativen KI.",{"text":34546,"start":9483,"end":9524},"Das ist schon, ja, es wird ja allzu oft gesagt, das ist disruptiv, was da kommt.",{"text":34548,"start":9527,"end":9674},"Ich denke, hier ist das wirklich gerechtfertigt, das Adjektiv zu benutzen, denn ja, im Gegensatz zu allen anderen Entwicklungen jetzt auch gerade in in der Softwareentwicklung und und und Hilfen, die man dort gehabt hat an an an Tools, an an an Case Werkzeugengeneratoren und so weiter, geht's ja schon noch mal darüber hinauf.",115,{"sentences":34551,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34562,"start":9674,"end":9984},[34552,34554,34556,34558,34560],{"text":34553,"start":9674,"end":9700},"Es ist ja nicht deterministischer Output, was bei rauskommt.",{"text":34555,"start":9703,"end":9728},"Das ist ja im im im sonst im Entwicklungswerkzeug nicht.",{"text":34557,"start":9728,"end":9787},"Wenn ich 'n AR Schema reinwerfe und der spuckt mir 'n SQL Skript aus, das geht gemäß 1 Algorithmus.",{"text":34559,"start":9791,"end":9872},"Das ist nachvollziehbar, das kann ich dann auch, wenn der Algorithmus korrekt implementiert ist, sagen, das ist korrekt und guten Gewissens freigeben und das ist ja bei den generativen Systemen anders.",{"text":34561,"start":9872,"end":9984},"Da geben ja unterschiedliche Systeme oder das gleiche System zu verschiedenen Zeitpunkten verschiedene Lösungen raus und das und und ist in der Lage, dann ja auch irgendwie noch mal nachzubessern, wenn man sagt, so so war's nicht, so ist es nicht.",110,{"sentences":34564,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34575,"start":9984,"end":10156},[34565,34567,34569,34571,34573],{"text":34566,"start":9984,"end":10015},"Und da liegen die Systeme ja unwahrscheinlich zu, finde ich.",{"text":34568,"start":10015,"end":10065},"Das war ja anfangs ja, in den ersten Versionen hat er ja mehr oder weniger auf seine Meinung bestanden.",{"text":34570,"start":10068,"end":10115},"Dann kam umgekehrt, dass es bisschen sehr schleimig wurde und klar wird, ja, da hast Du natürlich recht.",{"text":34572,"start":10119,"end":10136},"Da sind dann ja auch jeder Antwort.",{"text":34574,"start":10136,"end":10156},"Ja, sind dann ja auch Dinge viral gegangen.",62,{"sentences":34577,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34588,"start":10156,"end":10336},[34578,34580,34582,34584,34586],{"text":34579,"start":10156,"end":10175},"Da sollte irgendwie 2 plus 2 berechnen.",{"text":34581,"start":10175,"end":10217},"Und wenn man lang genug sagt, das ist aber 5, hat er irgendwann gesagt, jo, hast recht.",{"text":34583,"start":10219,"end":10240},"Ich mach genauen Analysen ist es halt so.",{"text":34585,"start":10242,"end":10285},"Ja, damit muss man ja auch 'n Stück weit, ja, umgehen und das auch entsprechend bestellen.",{"text":34587,"start":10285,"end":10336},"Also ich denke, das ist die die Berechtigung, dass da schon was hinter steckt, dass wir da entsprechend was tun müssen.",69,{"sentences":34590,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34599,"start":10338,"end":10547},[34591,34593,34595,34597],{"text":34592,"start":10338,"end":10351},"Ja, wo passen wir das an?",{"text":34594,"start":10351,"end":10385},"Ich denke, in den Die die gängigen Werkzeuge werden natürlich verwendet.",{"text":34596,"start":10389,"end":10438},"Bei uns im dualen Studium dann auch noch mal unterschiedlich, wie stark das schon den jeweiligen Unternehmen entsprechend betrieben wird.",{"text":34598,"start":10441,"end":10547},"Und ja, und dann versuchen wir eben auch die das dann im Curriculum entsprechend einfließen zu lassen, zum Beispiel indem weitere originäre KI Vorlesungen veranstaltet werden oder indem es eben Einzug erhält in in andere Vorlesungen.",73,{"sentences":34601,"speaker":198,"num_words":34606,"start":10550,"end":10647},[34602,34604],{"text":34603,"start":10550,"end":10587},"Wie oft wird denn das Curriculum so angepasst, jetzt unabhängig von AI oder oder nicht AI?",{"text":34605,"start":10587,"end":10647},"Ist das was, was ihr euch wirklich so jedes Jahr wieder anschaut oder ist das son son Ich hab ja also Ja.",38,{"sentences":34608,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":10649,"end":10657},[34609],{"text":34610,"start":10649,"end":10657},"Einmal jedes Jahrtausend.",3,{"sentences":34613,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34393,"start":10660,"end":11019},[34614,34616,34618,34619,34621],{"text":34615,"start":10660,"end":10807},"Na oder ist das mehr so Impuls getrieben irgendwo dazwischen, die funktioniert Also es ist ungefähr alle 7 Jahre 'n großer Akkreditierungszyklus, dass also wirklich die ganze Geschichte überarbeitet wird, auch noch mal reflektiert wird, ob das Studienmodell so noch passend ist oder dann auch größere Veränderungen entsprechend vorgenommen werden.",{"text":34617,"start":10810,"end":10884},"Und das wär natürlich sehr schwierig, wenn man dann sagt, ja, das ist jetzt akkreditiert und in 7 Jahren gucken wir mal, was da noch von der KI zum Beispiel geblieben ist.",{"text":902,"start":10884,"end":10887},{"text":34620,"start":10887,"end":10965},"Deswegen im Kleineren können dann natürlich auch einzelne neue Module entsprechend definiert werden oder innerhalb bestehender Module dann auch Änderungen und Anpassungen vorgenommen werden.",{"text":34622,"start":10965,"end":11019},"Also jetzt zum Beispiel im Software Engineering entsprechende KI generative KI Werkzeuge einsetzt, das das bedarf natürlich keiner Curriculumsänderung.",{"sentences":34624,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34627,"start":11024,"end":11125},[34625],{"text":34626,"start":11024,"end":11125},"Das steht ja wahrscheinlich auch in der Modulbeschreibung, ich hab's jetzt nicht den den genauen Wortlaut, aber steht ja wahrscheinlich unter Einsatz moderner Werkzeuge und das entscheidet dann der Dozent oder die Dozentin, was an der Stelle modern ist.",39,{"sentences":34629,"speaker":198,"num_words":34639,"start":11127,"end":11360},[34630,34632,34634,34636,34637],{"text":34631,"start":11127,"end":11175},"Es gibt ja so mehrere Dimensionen davon, wie sich KI quasi niederschlagen kann bei euch den Alltag.",{"text":34633,"start":11175,"end":11256},"Das eine ist über den Lehrplan inhaltlich, ja, wir sprechen darüber, wie neuronale zu funktionieren, wie Transformer funktionieren, was Pre Training ist, was Post Training ist und so weiter.",{"text":34635,"start":11258,"end":11296},"Das andere ist wahrscheinlich auch, wie Studierende selbst KI Tools nutzen können, dürfen, sollen.",{"text":4881,"start":11300,"end":11301},{"text":34638,"start":11303,"end":11360},"Dann wahrscheinlich aber auch, wie das in Prüfungssituationen auszusehen hat und ja wahrscheinlich aber auch, wie das auf eurer Seite aussieht.",82,{"sentences":34641,"speaker":198,"num_words":34240,"start":11360,"end":11470},[34642],{"text":34643,"start":11360,"end":11470},"Also auch für Lehrende ist ja die Frage so, wie kann ich das nicht für mich selbst auch irgendwie nutzen, Material zu erstellen, Prüfungsszenarien zu, also weiß nicht, aber das sind so, glaube ich, die die Punkte, wo es überall relevant werden kann, oder?",{"sentences":34645,"speaker":1077,"num_words":1077,"start":11472,"end":11477},[34646],{"text":34647,"start":11472,"end":11477},"Ja, natürlich.",{"sentences":34649,"speaker":174,"num_words":244,"start":11477,"end":11508},[34650,34652],{"text":34651,"start":11477,"end":11490},"Prüfung korrigieren, automatisieren.",{"text":34653,"start":11494,"end":11508},"Ich les mir das nicht mehr durch.",{"sentences":34655,"speaker":198,"num_words":34662,"start":11511,"end":11677},[34656,34658,34660],{"text":34657,"start":11511,"end":11594},"Na ja, ich glaube, Du hast das tatsächlich in in der Informatik noch 'n bisschen vielleicht weiter weg, weil die ein oder anderen Prüfungen ja vielleicht binärer sind als in anderen Fächern.",{"text":34659,"start":11594,"end":11627},"Aber wenn Du jetzt vorstellst, ich hab ja Politikwissenschaft studiert Stimmt.",{"text":34661,"start":11631,"end":11677},"Und da muss halt wirklich lange Essays und Präsentationen und so was halten, also Jetzt lesen",59,{"sentences":34664,"speaker":174,"num_words":34091,"start":11677,"end":11693},[34665],{"text":34666,"start":11677,"end":11693},"wir den Scheiß nicht mehr durch.",{"sentences":34668,"speaker":198,"num_words":33984,"start":11693,"end":11802},[34669],{"text":34670,"start":11693,"end":11802},"Ich kann mir durchaus von meinen alten Professoren den ein oder anderen Vorstell, der sagt so, ja, ChatGPT, sagen wir mal, wie sah das denn hier bei dem Jan aus und hat er irgendwie die Aufgabenstellung erfüllt oder so was dann?",{"sentences":34672,"speaker":174,"num_words":34677,"start":11806,"end":11847},[34673,34675],{"text":34674,"start":11806,"end":11838},"Ja, davor war das irgend 'n Mitarbeiter, heute ist es ChatGPT, ja.",{"text":34676,"start":11838,"end":11847},"Ja, wofür gibt's",15,{"sentences":34679,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":11847,"end":11863},[34680,34682],{"text":34681,"start":11847,"end":11860},"halt studentische Hilfskräfte, ja.",{"text":627,"start":11860,"end":11863},{"sentences":34684,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34340,"start":11866,"end":12044},[34685,34686,34688,34690,34692],{"text":729,"start":11866,"end":11867},{"text":34687,"start":11867,"end":11973},"Also Prüfungsformate insbesondere, das ist schon auch 'n Punkt, der aktuell sehr stark diskutiert wird bei uns, weil ja manche Dinge, die jetzt über die letzten Jahrzehnte, kann man schon fast sagen, Routine geworden sind, eben nicht mehr funktionieren.",{"text":34689,"start":11976,"end":12009},"Also ich möchte gern mal die Prüfungsdinge in so 3 Kategorien einteilen.",{"text":34691,"start":12012,"end":12015},"Das 1.",{"text":34693,"start":12017,"end":12044},"Sind die normalen Module, die als offener Vorlesung entsprechend basieren.",{"sentences":34695,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34705,"start":12047,"end":12234},[34696,34698,34700,34702,34704],{"text":34697,"start":12047,"end":12096},"Da denke ich, ist am Ende die Prüfungsform ja, die klassische Klausur wird da eine Renaissance erleben.",{"text":34699,"start":12096,"end":12125},"Das ist jetzt vielleicht auch nicht besonders populär oder pädagogisch modern.",{"text":34701,"start":12128,"end":12188},"In den letzten Jahren hat man ja eher versucht, so semesterbegleitende Prüfungsformen zu etablieren oder irgendwie kombinierte Prüfungsleistungen oder Ähnliches.",{"text":34703,"start":12190,"end":12229},"Da denke ich, wird eher wieder der Switch zurück zur klassischen Klausur oder zur mündlichen Prüfung Ja.",{"text":12235,"start":12233,"end":12234},66,{"sentences":34707,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34718,"start":12238,"end":12489},[34708,34710,34712,34714,34716],{"text":34709,"start":12238,"end":12269},"Beide mit verschiedenen Vor- und Nachteilen, die die ja bekannt sind.",{"text":34711,"start":12272,"end":12301},"Also das ist denke ich, das ist so das das klassische Modul.",{"text":34713,"start":12304,"end":12329},"Ja dann haben wir ja die Dinge, wo praktisch gearbeitet wird.",{"text":34715,"start":12331,"end":12391},"Das heißt in der Informatik am Anfang typischerweise die Programmierübungen und und in in Datenbanken noch der Einstieg in SQL eigentlich klassischerweise.",{"text":34717,"start":12394,"end":12489},"Da wird, da funktioniert's natürlich nicht mehr, dass man wöchentlich 'n Aufgabenblatt hat und gerade in in soner Anfängervorlesung ist man ja, hat man ja deutlich überschaubare Schemagröße oder Schwierigkeitsgrad der Programmieraufgabe.",88,{"sentences":34720,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34052,"start":12493,"end":12607},[34721,34723],{"text":34722,"start":12493,"end":12567},"Da machen heutige, ja, allgemeine, öffentlich zugängliche LLM Systeme, sind sie sehr, sehr nah an den 100 Prozent dran, die sie dort einfach lösen.",{"text":34724,"start":12570,"end":12607},"Das heißt, dort müssen wir irgendwie uns dann die Lösung noch mal präsentieren lassen, erklären lassen.",{"sentences":34726,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":12610,"end":12611},[34727],{"text":4881,"start":12610,"end":12611},{"sentences":34729,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34062,"start":12614,"end":12716},[34730,34732,34734,34736],{"text":34731,"start":12614,"end":12631},"Vielleicht auch da gar nicht so was Neues.",{"text":34733,"start":12631,"end":12655},"Also waren's vorhin ja schon in den Neunzigerjahren.",{"text":34735,"start":12659,"end":12671},"Ich hab in Oldenburg studiert.",{"text":34737,"start":12675,"end":12716},"Da habe ich selber als Student und ich war dann später auch Tutor in der Programmiervorlesung.",{"sentences":34739,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":12720,"end":12735},[34740],{"text":34741,"start":12720,"end":12735},"Ist in Niedersachsen Oldenburg, oder?",{"sentences":34743,"speaker":1077,"num_words":1077,"start":12735,"end":12740},[34744],{"text":34745,"start":12735,"end":12740},"Ja, genau.",{"sentences":34747,"speaker":174,"num_words":33977,"start":12740,"end":12763},[34748,34750,34751],{"text":34749,"start":12740,"end":12756},"Ah, ich kenn mich aus Geografiefeister.",{"text":729,"start":12760,"end":12761},{"text":902,"start":12761,"end":12763},{"sentences":34753,"speaker":1077,"num_words":33993,"start":12765,"end":12858},[34754],{"text":34755,"start":12765,"end":12858},"Da da hat er's Korrektur in Anwesenheit genannt, dass dann wöchentlich Aufgaben abgegeben wurden und so stichprobenartig hat man dann sone Zweiergruppe mal befragt, wo's damit Das haben",{"sentences":34757,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":12858,"end":12863},[34758],{"text":34759,"start":12858,"end":12863},"wir in",{"sentences":34761,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":12863,"end":12878},[34762],{"text":34763,"start":12863,"end":12878},"der Oberstufe auch schon gemacht,",{"sentences":34765,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":12878,"end":12892},[34766],{"text":34767,"start":12878,"end":12892},"das fand ich immer gut.",{"sentences":34769,"speaker":174,"num_words":34227,"start":12892,"end":12916},[34770,34772],{"text":34771,"start":12892,"end":12914},"Ach nee, ich hatte es im Studium auch.",{"text":729,"start":12914,"end":12916},{"sentences":34774,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":12916,"end":12921},[34775],{"text":34776,"start":12916,"end":12921},"Oder das",{"sentences":34778,"speaker":174,"num_words":34259,"start":12921,"end":12969},[34779],{"text":34780,"start":12921,"end":12969},"ganze Anttestator oder sollen wir das genannt, irgendwie bevor Du überhaupt zugelassen wirst zu irgendeiner prüfen",{"sentences":34782,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":12969,"end":12975},[34783],{"text":34784,"start":12969,"end":12975},"oder so.",{"sentences":34786,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34795,"start":12975,"end":13103},[34787,34789,34791,34793],{"text":34788,"start":12975,"end":12980},"Genau, genau.",{"text":34790,"start":12980,"end":13071},"Also das wird man schon noch da an der Stelle verstärken verstärken müssen, diese diese nach, also die die Erklärungen, was ja Antestate, kleines Kolloquium, Erklärung, Nachfrage und so weiter.",{"text":34792,"start":13071,"end":13094},"Das denke ich, wird bei diesen Laborarbeiten verstärkt.",{"text":34794,"start":13098,"end":13103},"Wir hatten",42,{"sentences":34797,"speaker":198,"num_words":34803,"start":13103,"end":13193},[34798,34800,34801],{"text":34799,"start":13103,"end":13150},"ja vor 2 Wochen, also wir haben ja ab und zu immer mal hier Studenten auch zu Gast.",{"text":11629,"start":13150,"end":13154},{"text":34802,"start":13154,"end":13193},"Vor 2 Wochen war wieder von der TM in Gießen eine Gruppe hier.",32,{"sentences":34805,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":13193,"end":13210},[34806,34808],{"text":34807,"start":13193,"end":13199},"Nee, Friedberg.",{"text":34809,"start":13199,"end":13210},"Friedberg war das?",{"sentences":34811,"speaker":198,"num_words":34822,"start":13210,"end":13482},[34812,34814,34816,34818,34820],{"text":34813,"start":13210,"end":13255},"Ja, stimmt, Die hab ich auch son bisschen gefragt, wie ist bei denen alles so ändert?",{"text":34815,"start":13255,"end":13292},"Ich dachte, ich bereite mich schon mal hier so inhaltlich diese Folge vor.",{"text":34817,"start":13292,"end":13299},"Gut, ja.",{"text":34819,"start":13299,"end":13329},"Die haben mir auch erzählt, ja, manchmal muss ich mich auch vorbereiten.",{"text":34821,"start":13332,"end":13482},"Und die haben mir erzählt, dass sie jetzt als Prüfungsformat auch neu eingeführt haben für alles, was haben für alles, was eigentlich so länger laufende Projekte sind, wo's am Ende früher mal so eine große Abschlussarbeit gab, ja, sagen, na ja, die machen so alle 2 Wochen, glaub ich, son Minikollochium eben und das quasi das ganze Semester über.",102,{"sentences":34824,"speaker":198,"num_words":34803,"start":13482,"end":13568},[34825,34827],{"text":34826,"start":13482,"end":13522},"Und es gibt quasi am Ende nur eine Note für all diese Einzelgespräche sozusagen.",{"text":34828,"start":13522,"end":13568},"Es gibt jetzt nicht die eine große Prüfungssituation, sondern Du wirst halt andauernd sozusagen im laufenden Betrieb geprüft.",{"sentences":34830,"speaker":174,"num_words":34835,"start":13572,"end":13647},[34831,34833],{"text":34832,"start":13572,"end":13595},"Warte und aber musst Du dir irgendwas zeigen?",{"text":34834,"start":13595,"end":13647},"Ist das 'n Projekt, das Du dir für 2 Wochen mitnimmst oder wie, wirst Du einfach Nee, nee, die",27,{"sentences":34837,"speaker":198,"num_words":34846,"start":13647,"end":13947},[34838,34840,34841,34843,34845],{"text":34839,"start":13647,"end":13696},"kriegen quasi ein Projekt, was die das ganze Semester über macht und sie sprechen quasi Immer im Zwischenetappen.",{"text":729,"start":13700,"end":13701},{"text":34842,"start":13703,"end":13744},"Über die Zwischenetappen, was ist der Fortschritt, wie haben wir das gelöst, woran hängen wir grade?",{"text":34844,"start":13748,"end":13943},"Und das ist natürlich, fand ich auch irgendwie 'n cooles Format, son bisschen, na, weil da kannst Du, ad hoc kannst Du ja nicht irgendwie andere Tools nehmen, Du musst das dann selber beantworten können alles und Du musst selber artikulieren können, was auch dein Problem ist, was egal wie sehr man jetzt eher ein nutzt oder nicht, allein artikulieren zu können, woran scheiterst Du gerade, was brauche ich, was was ist die Challenge so?",{"text":902,"start":13943,"end":13947},111,{"sentences":34848,"speaker":198,"num_words":34718,"start":13947,"end":14169},[34849,34851],{"text":34850,"start":13947,"end":13965},"Das ist ja schon mal 'n wichtiger Skill.",{"text":34852,"start":13965,"end":14169},"Und das fand ich eigentlich ganz interessantes Format, hab ich mir gedacht so, das hätte ich mir auch zu meinem Studium schon gewünscht irgendwie, nicht so diese eine Prüfungssituation zu haben, wo man ehrlicherweise auch vielleicht mal 'n schlechten Tag haben kann oder 'n Aussetzer oder so, sondern einfach zu sagen, so kontinuierlich schauen, wie ist dein progress, wie verhältst Du dich, wie näherst Du dich dem Problem, wie ist dein Lösungsansatz und das dann zu bewerten, fand ich gut.",{"sentences":34854,"speaker":174,"num_words":34865,"start":14169,"end":14391},[34855,34857,34859,34861,34863],{"text":34856,"start":14169,"end":14176},"Ja, interessant.",{"text":34858,"start":14176,"end":14236},"Ich ich ich würd vielleicht einfach noch vor einen Punkt zurückkommen, den Du gerade erwähnt hast, Olaf, den fand ich nämlich sehr interessant.",{"text":34860,"start":14239,"end":14303},"So grad, was Du gesagt hast, sone, wenn diese klassischen Programmiermodule oder auch Datenbankensystem, was ja so, glaub ich, son klassisches Modul ist.",{"text":34862,"start":14305,"end":14360},"Und da muss ja auch eine Aussage von vorhin denken, die Du gesagt hast, von wegen, na ja, man muss diese technische Tiefe haben.",{"text":34864,"start":14362,"end":14391},"Ich glaub, Zitat von dir, man muss verstehen, wie dieser Algorithmus funktioniert.",84,{"sentences":34867,"speaker":174,"num_words":34878,"start":14394,"end":14645},[34868,34870,34872,34874,34876],{"text":34869,"start":14394,"end":14420},"Und da erinner ich mich zum Beispiel auch an meine Studienzeit.",{"text":34871,"start":14423,"end":14470},"Da hatten wir das große Modul Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen, wird's wahrscheinlich in soner Form auch genau bei euch geben.",{"text":34873,"start":14470,"end":14489},"Ist so irgendwie so das Aussiehtmodul generell.",{"text":34875,"start":14489,"end":14562},"Und da haben wir ja wirklich noch gelernt, so ne, was ist Screens, was sind Integer, so was ist irgendwie 'n Array, was sind Listen bla bla.",{"text":34877,"start":14562,"end":14645},"Und wie schreibt man jetzt diesen Algorithmus, der das und das macht oder hier ist 'n Algorithmus, was kommt am Ende dabei raus und so was alles, ne, dass wir sehr stark drauf eingegangen sind.",99,{"sentences":34880,"speaker":174,"num_words":34889,"start":14645,"end":14836},[34881,34883,34885,34887],{"text":34882,"start":14645,"end":14702},"Und da ist vielleicht bei mir son bisschen diese ketzerische Frage an der Stelle so, ist es etwas, was wir in Zukunft tatsächlich wirklich noch brauchen?",{"text":34884,"start":14702,"end":14781},"So, ne, weil also wenn es jetzt darum geht zum Beispiel, also ne, also ehrlicherweise damals hab ich auch schon hinterfragt, wir haben so was wie implementier man so, ne.",{"text":34886,"start":14781,"end":14826},"So und dabei hab ich gefragt, na ja, wie oft brauch ich in meinem beruflichen Alltag 'n?",{"text":34888,"start":14829,"end":14836},"Wie oft hast Du",77,{"sentences":34891,"speaker":198,"num_words":34091,"start":14836,"end":14856},[34892,34894,34895],{"text":34893,"start":14836,"end":14848},"bei Lotum schon implementiert?",{"text":14854,"start":14852,"end":14853},{"text":14854,"start":14853,"end":14856},{"sentences":34897,"speaker":174,"num_words":34865,"start":14856,"end":15080},[34898,34900,34902,34904],{"text":34899,"start":14856,"end":14862},"So, ne.",{"text":34901,"start":14862,"end":14908},"Weil natürlich mittlerweile gilt's ja auch die ganzen Hilfsfunktion, ne, Punkt Sort und so was alles.",{"text":34903,"start":14908,"end":14979},"Und natürlich kann man jetzt noch mal, ne, wieder die Frage stellen so, na ja, aber sone wird das perfekt für mich lösen so eigentlich auf auf dieser kleinen Mikrokosmosebene.",{"text":34905,"start":14983,"end":15080},"Und genau, und da vielleicht an der Stelle dann wirklich so sehr, sehr hardlinig gefragt so, ist das überhaupt noch notwendig, dieses tiefe Verständnis von Algorithmen, von Datenstrukturen, von Datenbank Querys dann beizubringen und zu lernen?",{"sentences":34907,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34091,"start":15083,"end":15104},[34908,34910],{"text":34909,"start":15083,"end":15091},"In Kürze, ja.",{"text":34911,"start":15095,"end":15104},"Etwas etwas ausführlicher.",{"sentences":34913,"speaker":174,"num_words":34916,"start":15107,"end":15117},[34914],{"text":34915,"start":15107,"end":15117},"Mir können wir abbrechen.",4,{"sentences":34918,"speaker":198,"num_words":34916,"start":15121,"end":15131},[34919,34921],{"text":34920,"start":15121,"end":15128},"Folge ist fertig.",{"text":902,"start":15128,"end":15131},{"sentences":34923,"speaker":174,"num_words":33977,"start":15131,"end":15159},[34924,34926],{"text":34925,"start":15131,"end":15149},"Etwa Vielen Dank fürs Zuhören.",{"text":34927,"start":15149,"end":15159},"Bis nächste Woche.",{"sentences":34929,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34113,"start":15162,"end":15261},[34930,34932,34934,34936,34937],{"text":34931,"start":15162,"end":15168},"Ja, etwas ausführlicher.",{"text":34933,"start":15170,"end":15212},"Ich halte Algorithmen und Datenstrukturen für für die Praxis, für ein ganz, ganz wahnsinnig wichtiges Modul.",{"text":34935,"start":15214,"end":15230},"Und grade Sortieralgorithmen hast Du angesprochen.",{"text":4881,"start":15230,"end":15233},{"text":34938,"start":15233,"end":15261},"Neben dem, man guckt sich ja so 6, 7 Sortieralgorithmen.",{"sentences":34940,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":15265,"end":15287},[34941],{"text":34942,"start":15265,"end":15287},"Ja, Burnen Sword, Bubbles Sword.",{"sentences":34944,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34415,"start":15287,"end":15489},[34945,34946,34948,34950,34951],{"text":34788,"start":15287,"end":15295},{"text":34947,"start":15295,"end":15340},"Und das macht man nicht macht man nicht, weil das Sortiersystem Sortierproblem so so essenziell ist.",{"text":34949,"start":15340,"end":15364},"Das ist ja eigentlich klar, Dinge in Ordnung bringen.",{"text":902,"start":15364,"end":15368},{"text":34952,"start":15370,"end":15489},"Oder weil man später dann irgendwie einen dieser Algorithmen jemals implementieren müsste oder noch optimieren müsste oder sonst irgendwas, aber einfach dieses Verständnis allein diese Tatsache, dass für son relativ überschaubares Problem es diese Vielzahl an Algorithmen gibt, das ist wieder dieses vom Problem zum Programm.",{"sentences":34954,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34961,"start":15489,"end":15537},[34955,34957,34959],{"text":34956,"start":15489,"end":15502},"Das Problem ist das Sortieren.",{"text":34958,"start":15505,"end":15517},"Ich hab eine Vielzahl von Algorithmen.",{"text":34960,"start":15521,"end":15537},"Ich kann die Algorithmen noch mal unterschiedlich implementieren.",19,{"sentences":34963,"speaker":198,"num_words":174,"start":15540,"end":15541},[34964],{"text":1402,"start":15540,"end":15541},{"sentences":34966,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34184,"start":15544,"end":15746},[34967,34969,34971,34973],{"text":34968,"start":15544,"end":15595},"kann den, ich ich hab die 2 großen Gruppen der der quadratischen, einfachen Sortierverfahren und der schnellen.",{"text":34970,"start":15595,"end":15616},"Das ist ja auch eine 1 wahnsinnige Sache.",{"text":34972,"start":15619,"end":15662},"Wenn ich in irgendeinem anderen Problem, das ist dann natürlich der das Geld, dass ich das mitnehme.",{"text":34974,"start":15666,"end":15746},"Was heißt es denn, wenn jetzt irgendetwas quadratisch ist und wenn man dann mal mit 'ner auf 'nem entsprechend großen Array hat laufen lassen, dann weiß man, dass weiß man, was quadratisch heißt, geht",{"sentences":34976,"speaker":174,"num_words":34227,"start":15748,"end":15776},[34977,34979,34980],{"text":34978,"start":15748,"end":15762},"Die o von n Notation.",{"text":729,"start":15765,"end":15766},{"text":34981,"start":15766,"end":15776},"Geht damit noch.",{"sentences":34983,"speaker":198,"num_words":34611,"start":15776,"end":15787},[34984],{"text":34985,"start":15776,"end":15787},"Lauf ja nicht",{"sentences":34987,"speaker":174,"num_words":34057,"start":15787,"end":15810},[34988,34989,34991],{"text":15792,"start":15787,"end":15789},{"text":34990,"start":15794,"end":15807},"Oh, aber nicht ausm Studium.",{"text":15811,"start":15807,"end":15810},{"sentences":34993,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":15810,"end":15817},[34994],{"text":34995,"start":15810,"end":15817},"Ja, okay.",{"sentences":34997,"speaker":1077,"num_words":33984,"start":15817,"end":15930},[34998,34999,35001,35003,35005],{"text":729,"start":15817,"end":15819},{"text":35000,"start":15819,"end":15851},"Also von dem her, glaube ich, ist das immer noch unwahrscheinlich wichtig.",{"text":35002,"start":15854,"end":15885},"Und und diese Ideen, die werden ja auch wieder aufgegriffen im anderen Kontext.",{"text":35004,"start":15888,"end":15923},"Also neben Sortieren macht man dann ja auch Haching, baumbasierte Suchverfahren Mhm.",{"text":35006,"start":15925,"end":15930},"Und so weiter.",{"sentences":35008,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34476,"start":15932,"end":16137},[35009,35011,35013,35014,35016],{"text":35010,"start":15932,"end":15959},"Und die Ideen brauche ich dann ja auch wieder auf modernen Systemen.",{"text":35012,"start":15963,"end":15995},"Schließt son bisschen den Kreis zur Javaland oder Defland, Vektordatenbanken.",{"text":902,"start":15999,"end":16000},{"text":35015,"start":16000,"end":16081},"Wenn Vektordatenbanken indexiert werden, da habe ich mir da aber mal auch wieder hash basierte oder baum basierte oder auf irgend 'ner anderen Datenstrukturen, auf grafen basierte Verfahren.",{"text":35017,"start":16084,"end":16137},"Und die Entwicklerinnen und Entwickler, die haben auch in Algorithmen Datenstrukturen eine gute Vorlesung gehabt, die das transferieren konnten.",{"sentences":35019,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":16137,"end":16144},[35020,35021],{"text":902,"start":16137,"end":16140},{"text":4881,"start":16143,"end":16144},{"sentences":35023,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35032,"start":16146,"end":16418},[35024,35026,35028,35030],{"text":35025,"start":16146,"end":16177},"Ich möchte vielleicht noch mal das aufgreifen, was Du gesagt hast, dieses übers Semester.",{"text":35027,"start":16177,"end":16202},"Das ist, ich hatte ja gesagt, Laborarbeiten, klassische Module.",{"text":35029,"start":16205,"end":16265},"Der weitere Bereich sind dann Studien, Bachelor, arbeiten, Masterarbeit und bei uns im dualen Studium auch die die die Praxisberichte und arbeiten.",{"text":35031,"start":16269,"end":16418},"Da denke ich, ist auch zu viel KI Generierung zu vermeiden, ja, gerade sone engere Betreuung notwendig, dass man wirklich in sonem 2 Wochen Rhythmus sieht, wie so etwas entsteht in sonem Projekt und dann kriegt man ja schon mit, wer sich Gedanken macht und wer da versucht, mit relativ schlankem Fuß raus sag ich mal.",101,{"sentences":35034,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":16420,"end":16433},[35035],{"text":35036,"start":16420,"end":16433},"Wenn Du sagst, engere Betreuung.",{"sentences":35038,"speaker":1077,"num_words":1077,"start":16437,"end":16441},[35039,35040],{"text":4881,"start":16437,"end":16438},{"text":16442,"start":16438,"end":16441},{"sentences":35042,"speaker":198,"num_words":34143,"start":16444,"end":16507},[35043,35045,35046],{"text":35044,"start":16444,"end":16477},"sind ja jetzt nicht dafür bekannt, dass sie mit unendlich vielen Mitteln ausgestattet sind.",{"text":902,"start":16477,"end":16479},{"text":35047,"start":16481,"end":16507},"Das ist ja am Ende auch einfach 'n Personalproblem dann, oder?",{"sentences":35049,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35060,"start":16507,"end":16757},[35050,35052,35054,35056,35058],{"text":35051,"start":16507,"end":16513},"Ja, ja.",{"text":35053,"start":16516,"end":16589},"Ja, also diese Betreuung jetzt bei bei Studienarbeiten beispielsweise, also ich mach in der Regel dann im 14 Tages Rhythmus im Semester Termine mit den Studierenden.",{"text":35055,"start":16592,"end":16623},"Das ist an der Stelle dann schon, ja, denke ich, gehört dazu.",{"text":35057,"start":16623,"end":16655},"Das bringt einfach das das die die Lehrtätigkeit da entsprechend mit sich.",{"text":35059,"start":16655,"end":16757},"Das das gehört dazu, dass man nicht dem Studium am Anfang das Thema gibt und sagt, in 9 Monaten kann's abgeben und dann ja, schiebe ich das Ding mal bei ChatGPT rein und lass mir das Gutachten generieren.",90,{"sentences":35062,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35073,"start":16760,"end":17161},[35063,35065,35067,35069,35071],{"text":35064,"start":16760,"end":16798},"Das ja wäre auch nicht nicht nicht fair den Studierenden gegenüber, muss man einfach mal sagen.",{"text":35066,"start":16800,"end":16908},"Die eigentliche Arbeit am Ende, die verliert dann vielleicht sogar ein bisschen an Gewicht, dass man dann bei der Bewertung auch mehr den den Fortschritt, die Idee, das Denken in Alternativen, da hat 1 irgend eine Lösung gefunden, irgend eine Architektur.",{"text":35068,"start":16912,"end":17052},"Was wären, es gibt immer Alternativen und immer Kriterien, an denen ich das objektiv festmachen kann, egal für welche Lösung ich mich dann auch entscheide, dass all diese ja vorhin genannten weicheren Skills, wie hat der Student die Studentin die im Projekt angesetzt, dass man das verstärkt in die Begutachtung mit mit reinnimmt.",{"text":35070,"start":17057,"end":17109},"Wobei auch das Schreiben nach wie vor, denke ich, eine wichtige Sache ist, auch im Informatik oder allgemein im technischen Umfeld.",{"text":35072,"start":17111,"end":17161},"Wir brauchen nicht nur laufenden Code, sei ja selbst geschrieben, sei ja generiert, sei ja orchestriert oder wie auch immer zusammengestöpselt.",152,{"sentences":35075,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34254,"start":17165,"end":17406},[35076,35078,35080,35082,35084],{"text":35077,"start":17165,"end":17177},"Wir brauchen dann auch technische Dokumentation.",{"text":35079,"start":17180,"end":17187},"Wir brauchen Handbücher.",{"text":35081,"start":17190,"end":17267},"Wir brauchen Ausschreibungstexte in gewissen Szenarien und Branchen und so weiter und da muss man eben auch selber formulieren können und auch das das Schreiben selber an einem Dokument.",{"text":35083,"start":17270,"end":17293},"Beim Schreiben denkt man auch nach, beim Schreiben reflektiert man.",{"text":35085,"start":17296,"end":17406},"Beim Schreiben kommen einem manchmal auch Ideen, das hat man irgendwie im Kopf, also hier wieder bei euch, ah da könnten wir mal ein tolles Spiel machen, das irgend eine abstrakte Idee und dann beim Aufschreiben stellen wir fest, so wird's wahrscheinlich doch nicht ganz",{"sentences":35087,"speaker":174,"num_words":1077,"start":17408,"end":17413},[35088],{"text":35089,"start":17408,"end":17413},"Ist nicht",{"sentences":35091,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35100,"start":17413,"end":17551},[35092,35094,35095,35096,35098],{"text":35093,"start":17413,"end":17420},"so lustig.",{"text":17427,"start":17424,"end":17425},{"text":902,"start":17425,"end":17429},{"text":35097,"start":17432,"end":17486},"Oder ich geborene's noch mal jemand anderen zum drüberlesen und der sagt, was was soll das denn oder was hast dir dabei denn gedacht?",{"text":35099,"start":17489,"end":17551},"Also dieser der der Prozess des Schreibens an sich, der ist auch im technischen Umfeld ein 1 auch ein wichtiger Soft Skill nach wie vor.",53,{"sentences":35102,"speaker":174,"num_words":33970,"start":17551,"end":17632},[35103,35105],{"text":35104,"start":17551,"end":17597},"Aber ich würd nicht sagen per se das Schreiben an sich, sondern einfach dieses Aussprechen und Festhaltende Idee.",{"text":35106,"start":17597,"end":17632},"Also sei es jetzt Schreiben, sei es jetzt auch diktieren so, ne, das ist halt",{"sentences":35108,"speaker":198,"num_words":35119,"start":17634,"end":17976},[35109,35111,35113,35115,35117],{"text":35110,"start":17634,"end":17690},"Ja, also das ist jetzt nicht Schreiben mit Stimmt oder Ja, aber ich glaube, dass die das zu Ende denken Genau, genau.",{"text":35112,"start":17693,"end":17710},"Der Idee so, dadurch den Punkt, ne.",{"text":35114,"start":17710,"end":17820},"Ich hab auch letzte Woche an 'nem Prototypen gesessen und im Prinzip kann man ja in deutscher, englischer, menschlicher Sprache die Idee schon so konkret aufschreiben, dass der Schritt zum Code eigentlich nicht mehr, also nur noch 'n Übersetzungsproblem ist sozusagen, ne.",{"text":35116,"start":17822,"end":17884},"Und man kann ja jedes Problem eigentlich schon so genau ausspezifizieren, so genau zu Ende denken, dass man schon merkt, okay, klappt das oder klappt das nicht?",{"text":35118,"start":17884,"end":17976},"Und ob ich das dann am Ende in, weiß nicht, in in c, in Java, in Python, in irgendwas noch mal portiere, damit das Laufweg ist, das ist ja dann der allerletzte kleinste Schritt sozusagen.",133,{"sentences":35121,"speaker":198,"num_words":35130,"start":17976,"end":18098},[35122,35124,35126,35127,35129],{"text":35123,"start":17976,"end":18005},"Aber 90 Prozent von der Arbeit sind ja vorher schon schon passiert sozusagen.",{"text":35125,"start":18005,"end":18033},"Und ich glaube, das ist das das Wichtige, dieses zu Ende denken.",{"text":4881,"start":18033,"end":18036},{"text":35128,"start":18036,"end":18094},"Und ob Du das jetzt diktierst, sprichst, malst oder irgendwas, ich glaube, der Skill ist im Kopf, das konsequent durchzugehen.",{"text":4881,"start":18097,"end":18098},47,{"sentences":35132,"speaker":198,"num_words":35143,"start":18101,"end":18456},[35133,35135,35137,35139,35141],{"text":35134,"start":18101,"end":18182},"Aber weil Du Schreiben und Denken gesagt hast, hat hat Lesen auch jetzt vielleicht noch mal sone andere Rolle bekommen, weil das ist das, was wir hier auch immer son bisschen diskutieren, ja.",{"text":35136,"start":18184,"end":18233},"In dem Moment, wo wo mehr Code quasi fremd erzeugt wird, ich ja aber trotzdem noch dafür verantwortlich bin, ja.",{"text":35138,"start":18233,"end":18379},"Hier bei uns sind wir inhaltlich da verantwortlich, bei euch ist man in der Prüfung dann spätestens dafür verantwortlich, muss man ja quasi viel mehr Code lesen, verstehen lernen, den man gar nicht selber geschrieben hat, was da sone Challenge war, die's früher vielleicht weniger gab, weil der meiste Code, den man gelesen hatte, war man vorher schon mal irgendwie involviert.",{"text":35140,"start":18379,"end":18419},"Und jetzt ist man immer nur noch son unbeteiligter Dritter sozusagen in diesem ganzen Szenario.",{"text":35142,"start":18423,"end":18456},"Und das finde ich doch immer son sehr anderer Skillset als als vorher.",142,{"sentences":35145,"speaker":198,"num_words":34227,"start":18456,"end":18482},[35146],{"text":35147,"start":18456,"end":18482},"Weil weiß nicht, Dave, hatten Sie's das auch so?",{"sentences":35149,"speaker":174,"num_words":35159,"start":18482,"end":18726},[35150,35151,35153,35155,35157],{"text":18488,"start":18482,"end":18485},{"text":35152,"start":18490,"end":18584},"Also es ist ja, also allein aus der Vergangenheit, was ich erkenne, ein 1 PR zu und ein PR zu machen so, ist ja also ist ja, nee wie Tag und Nacht, aber ist schon 'n Unterschied, ne.",{"text":35154,"start":18584,"end":18612},"Weil einfach so, okay, was hat sich die Person dabei gedacht so?",{"text":35156,"start":18612,"end":18660},"Und wenn ich in der 'n paar PR erstelle, dann Also ich weiß ja, was meine Gedanken dazu waren.",{"text":35158,"start":18660,"end":18726},"So, irgendwie dabei erst mal nach zu nennen, ach so, der das so und so aufgezogen, damit das und das Ergebnis am Ende rauskommt so.",95,{"sentences":35161,"speaker":174,"num_words":34803,"start":18726,"end":18809},[35162,35164],{"text":35163,"start":18726,"end":18776},"Und das ist natürlich, also ist nicht 'n ganz anderer Skill, aber ich find auf jeden Fall anstrengender, Punkt 1.",{"text":35165,"start":18779,"end":18809},"Und man muss da doch noch mehr Zeit reinstecken, als man meint.",{"sentences":35167,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35178,"start":18813,"end":19121},[35168,35170,35172,35174,35176],{"text":35169,"start":18813,"end":18823},"Ja, denke ich auch.",{"text":35171,"start":18823,"end":18894},"Also das das Problem war, denke ich, auch in der Vergangenheit schon da, wenn man alten Code geerbt hat, den irgendwer irgendwie entwickelt hat, sage ich mal vorsichtig.",{"text":35173,"start":18897,"end":19021},"Aber ja, wenn's jetzt nicht nicht ganz hanebüchen war, was dass irgendeiner was zusammen gehackt hat, war's immer noch menschlich produzierter Code, der gewissen Richtlinien unterlag und wenn er im eigenen Unternehmen, im eigenen Team war, dann hat man ja schon gewisse Coding Styles Richtlinien.",{"text":35175,"start":19025,"end":19041},"Wann werden welche Muster wie verwendet?",{"text":35177,"start":19041,"end":19121},"Wie werden Variablen benannt und so weiter, was einem ja grade die Lesbarkeit dann schon entsprechend oder auch Dokumentationsrichtlinien, was einem dann ja schon die Lesbarkeit und Verständlichkeit erhöhen soll.",113,{"sentences":35180,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35191,"start":19124,"end":19486},[35181,35183,35185,35187,35189],{"text":35182,"start":19124,"end":19222},"Das wird natürlich jetzt durch fremd generierten Code noch mal erschwert, weil man einfach aus verschiedenen mit verschiedenen Styles ja auch Code haben kann, der an verschiedenen Stellen generiert worden ist und dann in in in das Gesamtpaket irgendwie eingeflossen ist.",{"text":35184,"start":19224,"end":19342},"Also das denke ich auch und aber auch dafür wieder noch mal, komme ich noch mal zum Argument von vorhin zurück, ist es notwendig, ja, ich denke auch selber mal codiert zu haben noch mal, Auf jeden Fall hat man gar keine Chance, das irgendwie zu verstehen.",{"text":35186,"start":19345,"end":19385},"Ja, und auch das das tiefe Verständnis, tiefe technische Verständnis dort dann für für Algorithmen.",{"text":35188,"start":19385,"end":19438},"Also wenn man dann sieht, da ist eine fünffach geschachtelte Schleife, dann hat man sofort, ja der Alarmglocken.",{"text":35190,"start":19442,"end":19486},"Der geübte Blick sagt, ja, wenn da eine signifikant große Anzahl Durchläufe ist, ist das langsam.",137,{"sentences":35193,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35200,"start":19489,"end":19611},[35194,35196,35198],{"text":35195,"start":19489,"end":19503},"Das erkennt man dann ja auch.",{"text":35197,"start":19503,"end":19547},"Und und das ist dann sicherlich die Aufgabe zu, das zu erkennen, zu überlegen, muss es so sein?",{"text":35199,"start":19547,"end":19611},"Vielleicht geht's ja auch nicht anders an der Stelle oder kann man da in diesem Methoden rum vielleicht irgendwas dran drehen und und entsprechend besser machen?",50,{"sentences":35202,"speaker":174,"num_words":35213,"start":19615,"end":19941},[35203,35205,35207,35209,35211],{"text":35204,"start":19615,"end":19662},"Ich ich ich fühl mich grad son bisschen in der Rolle von Dennis, son bisschen der Lichter ist.",{"text":35206,"start":19662,"end":19734},"Dennis ist 'n großer AI Verfechter bei uns, bei Loto generell und sagt, na ja, das sind aktuelle Probleme, aber in paar Monaten muss man das nicht mehr machen.",{"text":35208,"start":19734,"end":19860},"Und ich ich ich würd das nicht auch son bisschen in die Richtung gehen, also ich ich ich geh mit dir mit auf jeden Fall, dass ich sagen würde, ja, es ist auf jeden Fall superpraktisch, jetzt noch halt Coach schreiben zu können, so, ne, als wir's zumindest mal gemacht haben.",{"text":35210,"start":19860,"end":19919},"Also beispielsweise wir, also ich war jetzt auch im Bewerbungsverfahren tätig und wir haben trotzdem auch geprüft so, kann der Bewerber hier jetzt Code schreiben?",{"text":35212,"start":19919,"end":19941},"So, ist er in der Lage so, ne.",131,{"sentences":35215,"speaker":174,"num_words":34575,"start":19941,"end":20094},[35216,35218,35220,35222,35223],{"text":35217,"start":19941,"end":19994},"Das Ergebnis ist auch nicht so unbedingt wichtig, aber halt so dieses, ah, okay, ja, dieses grundlegende Verständnis ist schon mal gut.",{"text":35219,"start":19996,"end":20046},"Und ich ich jetzt irgendwie aber mir denke so, es gab ja schon auch in der Vergangenheit in der Informatik so verschiedene Abstraktionsebenen.",{"text":35221,"start":20050,"end":20085},"Also weißt Du wahrscheinlich noch mal viel besser als ich, als 90, also nicht 90.",{"text":947,"start":20089,"end":20090},{"text":20097,"start":20093,"end":20094},{"sentences":35225,"speaker":174,"num_words":35235,"start":20099,"end":20233},[35226,35228,35230,35231,35233],{"text":35227,"start":20099,"end":20115},"Als Informatiker der Neunzigerjahre, so.",{"text":35229,"start":20117,"end":20124},"Formulieren kann ich.",{"text":729,"start":20126,"end":20127},{"text":35232,"start":20129,"end":20189},"Nee, ne, das ist so, also die ersten Programmiersprachen versus jetzt die, die dann später dazukamen, die ja dann mal viel krasser waren, ne.",{"text":35234,"start":20189,"end":20233},"Sei's jetzt irgendwie Java, Python, Typescript, dass sie auch viele Sachen besser gemacht hat, ne.",48,{"sentences":35237,"speaker":174,"num_words":35248,"start":20233,"end":20495},[35238,35240,35242,35244,35246],{"text":35239,"start":20233,"end":20305},"Auch jetzt grad, wir sind ja auch sehr stark im Web Development, die ganzen Frameworks, die ja existieren, die ja einfach nur eine Abstraktionsebene für uns abnehmen.",{"text":35241,"start":20305,"end":20357},"Und dann, also wir sind einfach eine Ebene drüber und wir müssen uns jetzt nicht mehr Reaktivität kümmern so.",{"text":35243,"start":20357,"end":20377},"Das macht ja alles das Framework für uns.",{"text":35245,"start":20377,"end":20477},"Und das jetzt, wenn man das noch mal weiterspinnt und denkt so, na ja, die AI nimmt uns die Abstraktionsebene Programmieren ab und wir sind dann, wie Du eingangs gesagt hast, son bisschen, na ja, wir wir sind so die Architekten.",{"text":35247,"start":20477,"end":20495},"Wir schauen so, dass das ganze System funktioniert.",103,{"sentences":35250,"speaker":174,"num_words":35258,"start":20495,"end":20642},[35251,35253,35255,35256],{"text":35252,"start":20495,"end":20522},"Wir orchestrieren und so was alles, dass das unsere Aufgabe ist.",{"text":35254,"start":20522,"end":20620},"Und dass halt quasi die die Final Abstraktionsebene, wo wir uns immer geholfen haben, so Programmieren einfacher zu machen, dass jetzt so die letzte Stufe sein könnte so, okay, der Teil wird uns genommen, irgendwie diesen Code dann auch zu schreiben.",{"text":4881,"start":20620,"end":20623},{"text":35257,"start":20623,"end":20642},"Dass man das nicht so weiter spinnen könnte.",61,{"sentences":35260,"speaker":1077,"num_words":1467,"start":20645,"end":20955},[35261,35263,35265,35267,35269],{"text":35262,"start":20645,"end":20677},"Ja, also ich denke, es wird noch da noch deutlich auch Weiterentwicklungen geben.",{"text":35264,"start":20677,"end":20786},"Die Systeme können durch gezieltes Nachtrainieren, durch Verbesserungen, durch weitere Mechanismen, Inferenzmechanismen und Ähnliches noch besser werden und noch besseren Code dann auch generieren in ja, nah mittlerer Zukunft, ohne da jetzt was Konkretes zu nennen.",{"text":35266,"start":20790,"end":20899},"Aber ich glaube, dass die das vollständige Wegorganisieren der dieser Abstraktion, dass das das eigentliche Progers, eigentliche Kodieren da komplett abzugeben, wegzuabstrahieren wird mit den Systemen, die die wir heute kennen, nicht nicht möglich sein.",{"text":35268,"start":20899,"end":20928},"Man wird immer noch an gewissen Stellen den den Einblick benötigen.",{"text":35270,"start":20931,"end":20955},"Das noch mal zu ergänzen zu deinem Beispiel mit den Frameworks.",{"sentences":35272,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35282,"start":20959,"end":21355},[35273,35275,35277,35279,35281],{"text":35274,"start":20959,"end":21033},"Da ja auch, es ist nach wie vor das oder oder die die Frameworks zu nennen, die Frameworks zu zu nutzen, sinnvoll zu nutzen, muss ich ja auch verstehen, was passiert da drunter.",{"text":35276,"start":21033,"end":21081},"Also beispielsweise, wenn wir son in der Datenbankwelt son OER Mapper haben, Hypernate oder was Ähnliches.",{"text":35278,"start":21083,"end":21229},"Wenn ich den ja verwende, ohne zu wissen, wie's in der Datenbank läuft und funktioniert, komme ich ja kann ich ja sehr, sehr schnell in in Performancenngpässe kommen, insbesondere wenn bei 'ner 1 zu viele Beziehung dann einzeln jeder Satz danach geladen wird und da sind 'n paar Millionen Tupel in der in der Detailrelation.",{"text":35280,"start":21233,"end":21352},"Das heißt, wenn ich dieses Phänomen hab, das tritt dann zum Beispiel auf, dann muss ich ja auch wissen, ah, da stimmt was nicht, da muss ich, kann ich ja mit dem Framework möglicherweise lösen, aber es muss sich irgendwie anders nutzen, anders konfigurieren, wie man es da funktioniert.",{"text":4881,"start":21354,"end":21355},154,{"sentences":35284,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35287,"start":21355,"end":21396},[35285],{"text":35286,"start":21355,"end":21396},"Und dass die KI das dann da komplett übernimmt, glaub ich, stand heute nicht.",14,{"sentences":35289,"speaker":198,"num_words":35300,"start":21398,"end":21736},[35290,35292,35294,35296,35298],{"text":35291,"start":21398,"end":21450},"Es ist ja auch nicht nur immer mehr, also was Du angesprochen hast, Dave ist ja eigentlich immer nur eine Abstraktionsebene höher, ne.",{"text":35293,"start":21450,"end":21511},"Also am Anfang haben wir uns irgendwie von Lochkarten hin zu sprachen, dann kam irgendwie so was wie dazu und ne, also immer immer höher.",{"text":35295,"start":21513,"end":21596},"Und ja, irgendwie die versuchen es, glaub ich, naheliegend zu sagen, na ja, wenn wir jetzt in menschlicher Sprache programmieren und dem LLM sagen, was wir haben wollen, dann ist das ja auch nur eine Abstraktionsstufe höher.",{"text":35297,"start":21598,"end":21672},"Aber ich glaub, der fundamentale Unterschied, das ist das, was Olaf vorher gesagt hat, so ist ja dieser nicht deterministische Teil, der jetzt quasi als Teil dieses Layers irgendwie dazukommt.",{"text":35299,"start":21676,"end":21736},"Und dementsprechend ist es eben nicht einfach nur mehr Abstraktion, sondern so diese Blackbox, von der man gar nicht sagen kann oder will, Mhm.",139,{"sentences":35302,"speaker":198,"num_words":34213,"start":21739,"end":21916},[35303,35305,35307,35309,35310],{"text":35304,"start":21739,"end":21767},"Was und wie sie denn da so am Ende des Tages macht, so.",{"text":35306,"start":21770,"end":21829},"Und andersrum formuliert kann ja KI auch nur so gut funktionieren, weil sie diese Blackbox ist, weil sie dieses nicht deterministische, generative Moment eben drin hat.",{"text":35308,"start":21831,"end":21908},"Also, in dem Moment, wo Du sie zu sehr einschränkst, wieder auf hundertprozentige Sicherheit und Determinismus zurückzukommen, verlierst Du ja auch viele Effekte von dem, was sie dir gebracht hat.",{"text":902,"start":21908,"end":21910},{"text":35311,"start":21910,"end":21916},"So, ja.",{"sentences":35313,"speaker":198,"num_words":35316,"start":21916,"end":21996},[35314],{"text":35315,"start":21916,"end":21996},"Von daher wird es, glaub ich, immer son Spannungsverhältnis bleiben, zumindest auf absehbare Zeit, wenn dann nicht irgendwie architektonisch noch was ganz anderes vom Ansatz her die Ecke kommt, ja.",30,{"sentences":35318,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":21996,"end":21998},[35319],{"text":4881,"start":21996,"end":21998},{"sentences":35321,"speaker":198,"num_words":35328,"start":22001,"end":22209},[35322,35324,35326],{"text":35323,"start":22001,"end":22138},"So, jetzt haben wir 'n bisschen darüber gesprochen, wie sich das inhaltlich verändert, wie das von Studierenden genutzt wird, wie das in Prüfungssituationen aussieht, aber mich würde natürlich auch interessieren, wie das für Lehrende selbst ist, ja, weil auch für euch liegt ja die die Versuchung, sag ich mal, positiv nahe, das auch irgendwie zu nutzen, ja.",{"text":35325,"start":22138,"end":22187},"Jeder von uns hat Arbeit, hat was zu tun und ist immer irgendwie daran interessiert, dass sich sich zu vereinfachen.",{"text":35327,"start":22190,"end":22209},"Und ja, wo wo nutzt Du das ganz konkret?",86,{"sentences":35330,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35335,"start":22209,"end":22300},[35331,35333],{"text":35332,"start":22209,"end":22219},"Mhm, mhm, ja.",{"text":35334,"start":22221,"end":22300},"Also ja, Professoren, Professoren sind ja von außen leicht im Verdacht, dass sie manchmal versuchen, ja, sehr ökonomisch zu handeln, zum Beispiel die gleiche Vorlesung über Jahre aufrechtzuerhalten.",31,{"sentences":35337,"speaker":198,"num_words":33970,"start":22304,"end":22391},[35338,35340],{"text":35339,"start":22304,"end":22356},"Ich hatte da mal einen Mathalehrer im in der Oberstufe, der immer gesagt hat, er nimmt seit Jahrzehnten dieselbe Prüfungsbögen.",{"text":35341,"start":22360,"end":22391},"Er macht sie nur jedes Jahr dümmer, weil die Schüler immer schlechter werden.",{"sentences":35343,"speaker":174,"num_words":34057,"start":22393,"end":22414},[35344,35346],{"text":35345,"start":22393,"end":22408},"Die Ergebnisse wurden trotzdem nicht besser.",{"text":22416,"start":22413,"end":22414},{"sentences":35348,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35143,"start":22418,"end":22786},[35349,35350,35352,35354,35356],{"text":902,"start":22418,"end":22419},{"text":35351,"start":22419,"end":22603},"Jetzt jetzt kann man sich ja im Prinzip irgendwie sagen, ich ich lass mir 'n Foliensatz generieren zu dem und dem Thema oder brech das im im Dialog son bisschen runter, sagt, das ist der Topic, dann gibt's eine Gliederung, dann verhandelt man noch mal 'n bisschen das Kapitel rein, das raus und meistens wird's einem ja schon angeboten, soll ich dir schon mal für Powerpoint und so weiter das vorbereiten?",{"text":35353,"start":22606,"end":22624},"Also das das glaube ich, das ist nix.",{"text":35355,"start":22624,"end":22655},"Also das hat das hat dann keine Qualität und kein keinen Tiefgang.",{"text":35357,"start":22659,"end":22786},"Also wenn man sich vor eine Gruppe Studierender stellt oder auf 1 wissenschaftlichen oder Entwicklerkonferenz vor Menschen stellt und da was erzählt, dann muss man auch selber, also ich hab's ja gefordert, grad die die große technische Tiefe für die zukünftigen Studierenden, dann kann ich selber nicht als Oberflächenschwimmer daherkommen.",{"sentences":35359,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35368,"start":22789,"end":23081},[35360,35362,35364,35366],{"text":35361,"start":22789,"end":22800},"Das ist das geht nicht.",{"text":35363,"start":22802,"end":22872},"Deswegen, ja, wenn man bestehende Vorlesungen überarbeitet, neue Inhalte reinnimmt oder bestehende überarbeitete neue Vorlesung angeht, also erstelle ich die Vorlesungen dort selber, die die Folien.",{"text":35365,"start":22875,"end":22964},"Und und man muss auch, wenn man da 'n Algorithmus hat und vorstellt, den muss man selber mal Schritt für Schritt ausgerechnet haben, wir hatten's vorhin ja im Vorgespräch, wie stark ist denn so die Interaktion?",{"text":35367,"start":22967,"end":23081},"Na ja, da gibt's schon mal den einen oder anderen, der dann sagt, wie ist 'n das, wenn und so weiter und jetzt wollen wir mal schauen und so weiter und das das wären wir persönlich auch peinlich, da vorne zu stehen und im Grunde keine Ahnung zu haben.",116,{"sentences":35370,"speaker":198,"num_words":35381,"start":23083,"end":23389},[35371,35373,35375,35377,35379],{"text":35372,"start":23083,"end":23134},"Das eine ist der dieser fachliche Teil, das andere ist ja auch immer so der die subjektive Wahrheit da dran, ne.",{"text":35374,"start":23134,"end":23235},"Also ich hatte auch, als wir die Studierenden hier hatten, gefragt, wie würdet ihr euch denn fühlen, wenn ihr sehen würdet, euer Dozent, euer Professor steht da vorne und ihr nutzt hier Material, was halt offensichtlich jetzt so mit mit KI generiert.",{"text":35376,"start":23235,"end":23304},"Das sind nicht unbedingt inhaltlich falsch oder so, also einfach dann, man sieht ja diesen diesen kreativen Stil, die Schreibweise, man kann das ja son bisschen Ja.",{"text":35378,"start":23306,"end":23315},"Doch schon erkennen irgendwie.",{"text":35380,"start":23317,"end":23389},"Und da gab's son sehr gespaltenes Feedback von den einen, die gesagt haben, so, ja, das ist ja voll okay, ich nutz KI, warum soll er das nicht nutzen können?",124,{"sentences":35383,"speaker":198,"num_words":35394,"start":23389,"end":23793},[35384,35386,35388,35390,35392],{"text":35385,"start":23389,"end":23419},"Solange das inhaltlich irgendwie korrekt ist, ist, soll mir das recht sein.",{"text":35387,"start":23419,"end":23557},"Und die anderen, die gesagt haben, na ja, ich hab mir ja schon diese Hochschule, diese Uni, diesen dieses Modul, diesen Dozent vielleicht auch im Zweifelsfall aussucht, weil ich ja was von ihm im Prinzip haben will und da auch an der an der Person ja wahrscheinlich auch 'n gewisser Wert hängt für die Studierenden so, ja.",{"text":35389,"start":23557,"end":23653},"Und wenn da quasi KI so als als Gatekeeper son bisschen dazwischen fungiert, da haben wir gesagt, das würde sich für die schon son bisschen wie so, ja, nicht eine Mogelpackung, aber das hat halt son Beigeschmack, ja.",{"text":35391,"start":23653,"end":23684},"Der da, das hat man und dann musste ich an den Fall denken.",{"text":35393,"start":23684,"end":23793},"Ich glaub, wir hatten das auch mal in den News live, wo eine Studentin ihre Hochschule verklagt hat, weil eben ihr Dozent auch da KI Material genutzt hat, gesagt hat, na ja, das war eine private Hochschule, ich zahl hier viel Geld quasi, ja.",164,{"sentences":35396,"speaker":198,"num_words":35403,"start":23793,"end":23850},[35397,35398,35400,35402],{"text":4881,"start":23793,"end":23795},{"text":35399,"start":23795,"end":23828},"Und dann werde ich mit so KI Ergebnissen hier abgespeist in der Vorlesung.",{"text":35401,"start":23828,"end":23846},"Das kann ja irgendwie auch nicht sein, so.",{"text":902,"start":23849,"end":23850},23,{"sentences":35405,"speaker":174,"num_words":34030,"start":23850,"end":23878},[35406,35408],{"text":35407,"start":23850,"end":23860},"Hat sie recht bekommen?",{"text":35409,"start":23860,"end":23878},"Was war das Ergebnis von diesem Case?",{"sentences":35411,"speaker":198,"num_words":34057,"start":23881,"end":23895},[35412],{"text":35413,"start":23881,"end":23895},"Sie hat, glaub ich, nicht recht bekommen.",{"sentences":35415,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":23895,"end":23905},[35416,35417],{"text":23900,"start":23895,"end":23898},{"text":35418,"start":23902,"end":23905},"Aber ja,",{"sentences":35420,"speaker":198,"num_words":174,"start":23908,"end":23909},[35421],{"text":1978,"start":23908,"end":23909},{"sentences":35423,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34611,"start":23912,"end":23920},[35424],{"text":35425,"start":23912,"end":23920},"Deswegen begrüße ich",{"sentences":35427,"speaker":198,"num_words":34611,"start":23920,"end":23927},[35428],{"text":35429,"start":23920,"end":23927},"das auch, ja.",{"sentences":35431,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35100,"start":23927,"end":24070},[35432,35433,35435,35437,35439],{"text":729,"start":23927,"end":23929},{"text":35434,"start":23929,"end":23948},"Also das erst mal generell für die Vorlesung.",{"text":35436,"start":23950,"end":24006},"Ja, so im Kleinen kann man's, denk ich, vielleicht schon nutzen, zum Beispiel sich Übungsaufgaben mal als Vorschlag generieren zu lassen.",{"text":35438,"start":24006,"end":24058},"Auch da wieder das plumpe generieren und 1 zu 1 reinkopieren aufs eigene Übungsblatt funktioniert auch da nicht.",{"text":35440,"start":24058,"end":24070},"Ist genau wie mitm Code.",{"sentences":35442,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35451,"start":24073,"end":24313},[35443,35445,35447,35448,35450],{"text":35444,"start":24073,"end":24120},"Es geht eben, was wie Begrifflichkeiten verwendet werden, wie Definitionen aufgebaut sind, geht's eben 'n Stück weit auseinander.",{"text":35446,"start":24123,"end":24208},"Und das muss man dann schon auf die eigene auf die eigene Vorlesung entsprechend anpassen, adaptieren oder sagen, nee, die Aufgabe ist zwar nett gemeint, aber die passt jetzt da bei mir nicht rein.",{"text":902,"start":24208,"end":24211},{"text":35449,"start":24211,"end":24310},"Und auch das kann man irgendwie nicht bringen als Dozierender, dass dann da irgendwie, ja, man ja sofort enttarnt ist heutzutage, wenn man da eine Aufgabe hat und da stehen Begriffe drin, die man selber nicht in der Vorlesung hatte.",{"text":902,"start":24310,"end":24313},94,{"sentences":35453,"speaker":1077,"num_words":33977,"start":24313,"end":24334},[35454],{"text":35455,"start":24313,"end":24334},"Ist ja klar, wo die Quelle entsprechend herkommt.",{"sentences":35457,"speaker":198,"num_words":34143,"start":24337,"end":24407},[35458,35459,35461,35463,35465],{"text":902,"start":24337,"end":24338},{"text":35460,"start":24342,"end":24356},"Ich wie war das ganz kurz?",{"text":35462,"start":24356,"end":24371},"Eine Folge war dazu noch.",{"text":35464,"start":24371,"end":24390},"Wie war das bei euch im im Fachbereich?",{"text":35466,"start":24390,"end":24407},"War das war das eine Diskussion?",{"sentences":35468,"speaker":198,"num_words":35474,"start":24411,"end":24572},[35469,35471,35472],{"text":35470,"start":24411,"end":24481},"Weil ich mein, auch bei uns in in den Entwicklerteams her wird ja auch diskutiert so, wie viel wollen wir, wie viel sollen wir, wie viel müssen wir davon irgendwie nutzen, ja.",{"text":902,"start":24483,"end":24484},{"text":35473,"start":24484,"end":24572},"Und gab's dann bei euch da auch Lehrer, die gesagt haben so, ja, nee, also ich ich will das überhaupt gar nicht oder die sich gerne noch mehr Einsatz gewünscht hätten oder gab's da überhaupt gar keine Diskussion?",71,{"sentences":35476,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35487,"start":24574,"end":24782},[35477,35479,35481,35483,35485],{"text":35478,"start":24574,"end":24585},"Ja, jetzt keine größere Diskussion.",{"text":35480,"start":24585,"end":24639},"Aber es gibt schon eine ganze Menge, die da, die da, die da, die da, die ist es ja in Ordnung.",{"text":35482,"start":24642,"end":24726},"Ich, ja, die die Aufgaben sind manchmal, wenn man sich zum Beispiel Aufgaben generieren lässt, da kann manchmal auch, Ja, das muss nicht falsch sein, aber es kann trotzdem didaktischer Humbug sein.",{"text":35484,"start":24726,"end":24734},"Honor, ja.",{"text":35486,"start":24734,"end":24782},"Also ich hatte neulich habe ich mir auch mal eine Aufgabe, neulich im letzten Wintersemester mal eine Aufgabe generieren lassen.",80,{"sentences":35489,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34113,"start":24782,"end":24890},[35490],{"text":35491,"start":24782,"end":24890},"Da ging's verschiedene statistische Streu- und Lagemasse, die wollten wir irgendwie für für Daten verwenden und da hab ich ihn noch mal wiederholt die Begriffe entsprechend so Median, Mittelwert, kumulative Distribution und so weiter, diese ganze",{"sentences":35493,"speaker":174,"num_words":34916,"start":24892,"end":24903},[35494],{"text":35495,"start":24892,"end":24903},"Den, die man kennt.",{"sentences":35497,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34057,"start":24906,"end":24924},[35498,35499],{"text":34745,"start":24906,"end":24910},{"text":35500,"start":24912,"end":24924},"Das ist ja auch nett.",{"sentences":35502,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":24927,"end":24935},[35503],{"text":35504,"start":24927,"end":24935},"Oh ja, stimmt.",{"sentences":35506,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34213,"start":24935,"end":25125},[35507,35509,35511,35513,35515],{"text":35508,"start":24935,"end":25012},"Da sollte da sollte der 20 Zahlen zwischen 1 und 9 entsprechend generieren und dafür wollten wir das dann, das war unser Beispiel Dataset, woran wir das eben berechnen wollten.",{"text":35510,"start":25015,"end":25066},"Und das hat er auch gemacht, hat auch die Lösungen alles korrekt rausgegeben, aber hatte eine komplette Gleichverteilung in den Daten.",{"text":35512,"start":25066,"end":25089},"Also jede Ziffer kam gleich oft vor entsprechend.",{"text":35514,"start":25089,"end":25108},"Dadurch war das Ding natürlich didaktisch unbrauchbar.",{"text":35516,"start":25111,"end":25125},"Ich hab eine völlig gleiche Verteilung.",{"sentences":35518,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34100,"start":25128,"end":25272},[35519,35521,35523,35525],{"text":35520,"start":25128,"end":25177},"Ja, Mittelwert und Median fallen ja schon zusammen und ja, ist eigentlich alles witzlos, das da dann zu demonstrieren.",{"text":35522,"start":25177,"end":25202},"Da will man ja 'n bisschen asymmetrische Verteilung haben.",{"text":35524,"start":25202,"end":25251},"Auch da wieder muss man raufgucken, muss sagen, die Aufgabe ist okay, aber jetzt noch mal mit Mit sinnvollen Daten.",{"text":35526,"start":25253,"end":25272},"Ungleich Verteilung der der der Daten, genau.",{"sentences":35528,"speaker":174,"num_words":35538,"start":25274,"end":25426},[35529,35530,35532,35534,35536],{"text":902,"start":25274,"end":25275},{"text":35531,"start":25275,"end":25295},"Kleine Anekdote auch aus unserem Leben.",{"text":35533,"start":25295,"end":25354},"Wir wollten nämlich auch für unsere Bewerber haben wir nämlich auch Claude gefragt so, hey, stell mal bitte eine Aufgabe, die eine AI nicht lösen kann.",{"text":35535,"start":25354,"end":25386},"Und dann so, okay, sone kleine Entwickleraufwerb kann man ja nur stellen.",{"text":35537,"start":25386,"end":25426},"Und Claude dann so, ja, stell dir mir lieber die Aufgabe, ein Betriebssystem zu entwickeln.",60,{"sentences":35540,"speaker":174,"num_words":34030,"start":25429,"end":25458},[35541,35543],{"text":35542,"start":25429,"end":25436},"Das bringt keine AI.",{"text":35544,"start":25440,"end":25458},"Und dann immer so, ja, kleine Einstiegsaufgabe.",{"sentences":35546,"speaker":198,"num_words":34000,"start":25462,"end":25479},[35547],{"text":35548,"start":25462,"end":25479},"Lotum o s als Prüfhaussituation.",{"sentences":35550,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34259,"start":25482,"end":25530},[35551,35552,35553,35555],{"text":902,"start":25482,"end":25483},{"text":947,"start":25486,"end":25487},{"text":35554,"start":25489,"end":25509},"Du hattest noch gefragt, ganze Abschlussarbeiten Ja.",{"text":35556,"start":25512,"end":25530},"Sich begutachten zu lassen von der AI.",{"sentences":35558,"speaker":198,"num_words":34202,"start":25532,"end":25563},[35559],{"text":35560,"start":25532,"end":25563},"Ist ja auch rechtlich, glaub ich, gar nicht bei uns so möglich, oder?",{"sentences":35562,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34227,"start":25563,"end":25589},[35563,35565],{"text":35564,"start":25563,"end":25580},"Ja, es ist es ja genau.",{"text":35566,"start":25580,"end":25589},"Also Mit lokalen",{"sentences":35568,"speaker":174,"num_words":1077,"start":25589,"end":25598},[35569],{"text":35570,"start":25589,"end":25598},"LLMs, aber",{"sentences":35572,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34197,"start":25600,"end":25888},[35573,35575,35577,35579,35581],{"text":35574,"start":25600,"end":25609},"Ja, genau, genau.",{"text":35576,"start":25609,"end":25659},"Also wir haben auch bei uns an der Hochschule ein lokales LLM, was geschützt in einem Moodle System drinliegt.",{"text":35578,"start":25662,"end":25736},"Wenn man da 'n kompletten Text hochlädt, kommt aber auch die Warnung, ich darf gemäß der Richtlinien und so weiter hier keine, ich kann nur eine Einschätzung geben.",{"text":35580,"start":25738,"end":25807},"Ja, ich ich glaub auch da ist die kommt die KI, sie kann sicherlich Stärken, Schwächen, irgendwie Punkte schon rausarbeiten, einem Orientierungspunkte geben.",{"text":35582,"start":25809,"end":25888},"Aber sie wird da und da gab's 'n Artikel in der Nature, das waren ging jetzt Konferenzartikel, nicht studentische Arbeiten, aber die dort auch gerevued werden mussten.",{"sentences":35584,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35594,"start":25891,"end":26070},[35585,35587,35589,35591,35592],{"text":35586,"start":25891,"end":25915},"Es war im Bereich Lebenswissenschaften, Bio irgendwo angesiedelt.",{"text":35588,"start":25918,"end":26015},"Da wurde das relativ systematisch untersucht, dass die Begutachtungen ja relativ viele Allgemeinplätze hatten wie das kann noch präziser sein, im Abschnitt über Related Work könnten noch weitere Quellen genannt werden und so weiter.",{"text":35590,"start":26015,"end":26031},"Das das So sehr generisches Feedback.",{"text":34745,"start":26031,"end":26038},{"text":35593,"start":26041,"end":26070},"Genau und und damit das Ganze auch dann irgendwo in der Mitte zusammenschiebt.",63,{"sentences":35596,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35130,"start":26074,"end":26196},[35597,35599],{"text":35598,"start":26074,"end":26144},"Es es wurde wenig erkannt, was was schlechte Paper waren und die richtig Guten wurden dafür ein bisschen nach unten gedrückt und es war relativ wenig Ausdifferenzierung.",{"text":35600,"start":26148,"end":26196},"Und das, denke ich, ist bei, wird dann bei längeren Texten nicht nicht besser oder die die KI nicht urteiltsicherer.",{"sentences":35602,"speaker":198,"num_words":35609,"start":26200,"end":26312},[35603,35605,35607],{"text":35604,"start":26200,"end":26232},"Wenn wir schon bei dem Review Punkt sind, vielleicht eine letzte Frage dann noch.",{"text":35606,"start":26234,"end":26272},"Nutzt ihr das auch so im im Plagiatskontext, so Plagiatsuntersuchungen bei Prüfungen oder so was?",{"text":35608,"start":26272,"end":26312},"Ja, also Weil das ist ja auch immer son Wettrüsten gefühlt, dieses ganze Plagiatsthema.",43,{"sentences":35611,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34052,"start":26316,"end":26417},[35612,35613,35615],{"text":4881,"start":26316,"end":26317},{"text":35614,"start":26317,"end":26367},"Ja, Plagiate sind bei uns gar nicht mal son großes Thema auch in dem Jahr vor der KI nicht gewesen.",{"text":35616,"start":26370,"end":26417},"Wir hatten vorhin ja gesagt, dieser Betreuungsrhythmus, dass man schaut, wie sich sone Arbeit entwickelt über die Kurz mal,",{"sentences":35618,"speaker":174,"num_words":34803,"start":26417,"end":26507},[35619,35621,35623,35625],{"text":35620,"start":26417,"end":26440},"hattet ihr das auch schon vor AI genauso gemacht?",{"text":35622,"start":26443,"end":26461},"Dass wir diesen regelmäßigen 2 Wochenabschnitt.",{"text":35624,"start":26466,"end":26472},"Ah, okay, okay.",{"text":35626,"start":26472,"end":26507},"Also ein System, das das vorher schon gut war und jetzt halt da Genau.",{"sentences":35628,"speaker":198,"num_words":34611,"start":26510,"end":26519},[35629],{"text":35630,"start":26510,"end":26519},"Rein zu fahren.",{"sentences":35632,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34705,"start":26519,"end":26700},[35633,35635,35636,35638,35640],{"text":35634,"start":26519,"end":26543},"Genau, jetzt vielleicht noch etwas konsequenter da nachzuverfolgen.",{"text":902,"start":26547,"end":26548},{"text":35637,"start":26550,"end":26633},"Und jetzt auch grad bei dem Bachelorarbeiten ist bei uns im dualen Studium das Problem eigentlich auch nicht existent, weil die Arbeiten ja in Kooperation mit 'nem dualen Partner stattfinden, mit 'nem Unternehmen.",{"text":35639,"start":26636,"end":26659},"Es ist dann ja meistens eine sehr spezifische Aufgabe Stimmt.",{"text":35641,"start":26662,"end":26700},"Zu der man dann auch nichts kein keine Vorlage findet, die man plagiieren könnte.",{"sentences":35643,"speaker":198,"num_words":174,"start":26700,"end":26702},[35644],{"text":4881,"start":26700,"end":26702},{"sentences":35646,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34961,"start":26705,"end":26752},[35647,35649],{"text":35648,"start":26705,"end":26732},"Also von dem her ist es da nicht das ganz große Thema.",{"text":35650,"start":26734,"end":26752},"Klar, im Grundlagenteil kann man das durchaus",{"sentences":35652,"speaker":198,"num_words":33984,"start":26754,"end":26851},[35653,35655,35657,35658,35659],{"text":35654,"start":26754,"end":26771},"Ja, aber es rettet einen ja dann nicht.",{"text":35656,"start":26771,"end":26801},"Also es kann's einem ja auch nur noch eine Hilfe sein im Prinzip.",{"text":729,"start":26801,"end":26804},{"text":947,"start":26806,"end":26807},{"text":35660,"start":26807,"end":26851},"Aber das ist ja wichtiger Punkt, das duale, da haben wir noch gar nicht so groß drüber gesprochen.",{"sentences":35662,"speaker":198,"num_words":34606,"start":26855,"end":26944},[35663,35665,35667,35669,35671],{"text":35664,"start":26855,"end":26909},"Es hilft euch bestimmt ja schon, hast Du am Anfang gesagt, son Einblick da reinzubekommen, so was passiert eigentlich gerade draußen am Markt?",{"text":35666,"start":26909,"end":26919},"Wie wird da gearbeitet?",{"text":35668,"start":26919,"end":26930},"Womit wird da gearbeitet?",{"text":35670,"start":26930,"end":26942},"Was ist relevant und was nicht?",{"text":4881,"start":26942,"end":26944},{"sentences":35673,"speaker":198,"num_words":34240,"start":26947,"end":27061},[35674,35676,35677],{"text":35675,"start":26947,"end":27016},"Gleichzeitig müsste ja trotzdem im Prinzip jetzt mit dem Curriculum Leute auf den Arbeitseinstieg in, Du hast wohl gesagt, so die frühen Mitte Dreißigerjahre im Prinzip vorbereiten.",{"text":4881,"start":27018,"end":27019},{"text":35678,"start":27022,"end":27061},"Wie schafft ihr das da, sone Antizipation zu haben von dem, was da überhaupt gebraucht wird?",{"sentences":35680,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35316,"start":27061,"end":27140},[35681,35682,35683,35684,35686],{"text":4881,"start":27061,"end":27064},{"text":4881,"start":27064,"end":27068},{"text":902,"start":27071,"end":27072},{"text":35685,"start":27075,"end":27109},"Ja, also im Dualen vielleicht erst mal, die Frage zu beantworten, ist es natürlich dieses Spiel.",{"text":35687,"start":27109,"end":27140},"Es kommt von draußen sicherlich Input, was dort grade genutzt wird.",{"sentences":35689,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35328,"start":27142,"end":27374},[35690,35692,35694,35696,35698],{"text":35691,"start":27142,"end":27197},"Zum anderen soll natürlich aber auch schon in die andere Richtung irgendwie die Idee sein, dass auch die Studierenden Ideen ins Unternehmen hineintragen.",{"text":35693,"start":27200,"end":27207},"Ja, der 2.",{"text":35695,"start":27207,"end":27244},"Teil deiner Frage, wie kann man das Ganze ja in gewisser Weise zukunftssicher machen?",{"text":35697,"start":27246,"end":27328},"Ich denke da auch, ja, wir hatten's ja im Laufe des Gesprächs schon mehrfach erwähnt, mehr Konzepte und technologische Grundlagen als als jetzt Tool Wissen und zu aktuelle Dinge.",{"text":35699,"start":27331,"end":27374},"Das ist natürlich gerade im KI Markt, im generativen KI Markt jetzt wahrscheinlich leichter gesagt als getan.",{"sentences":35701,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35708,"start":27377,"end":27617},[35702,35704,35706],{"text":35703,"start":27377,"end":27472},"Im im im klassischen Programmieren hatten wir auch diskutiert, Algorithmen, Datenstrukturen, das ist sicher, das das ist über Jahrzehnte das das gewachsen und und das ist, denke ich, Knowledge, was man auch in der Zukunft braucht.",{"text":35705,"start":27475,"end":27504},"Im generativen KI Markt ist es natürlich dann auch, das natürlich alles sehr volatil.",{"text":35707,"start":27508,"end":27617},"Und und diese diese Geschwindigkeit der der Entwicklung in den letzten Jahren, die ja macht die einem, lässt einen mit den Ohren schlackern bis hin, dass es einem auch ein bisschen Angst macht, was da so geschieht und entsprechend möglich ist.",91,{"sentences":35710,"speaker":198,"num_words":34091,"start":27619,"end":27631},[35711],{"text":35712,"start":27619,"end":27631},"Dave, hast Du noch eine Frage?",{"sentences":35714,"speaker":174,"num_words":35721,"start":27631,"end":27971},[35715,35717,35719],{"text":35716,"start":27631,"end":27727},"Ja, eine Letzt vielleicht, weil das noch gar nicht so sehr vorkam, bisschen Du hast grade so angeschnitten von wegen, na ja, wir wollen jetzt nicht auf irgendwie das neueste Tool springen und irgendwie den Hype und so mitnehmen.",{"text":35718,"start":27727,"end":27924},"Ist es aber trotzdem etwas so quasi, hey, also dass man jetzt vielleicht sogar darüber nachdenkt, 'n neues Modul zu schaffen, so, Entwicklerkompetenz mit AI oder so, wo man das dann dediziert, sich irgendwie vielleicht wirklich ein Modul, ein Semester Zeit nimmt oder dass man in irgend einen bestimmten anderen Modul schon unterbringt so, hey, das ist beispielsweise Klo, das irgendwie Kodex oder so und damit mal dann irgendwie rantastet so, was kann generative AI eigentlich im Entwicklerkontext?",{"text":35720,"start":27928,"end":27971},"Ist das etwas, was bei euch schon besteht oder wo ihr diskutiert, das irgendwie noch mal expliziter zu leben?",136,{"sentences":35723,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35728,"start":27974,"end":28179},[35724,35726],{"text":35725,"start":27974,"end":28085},"Ja, also ich würde immer den den letzteren Weg gehen und sagen, das ist jetzt eben, wir haben ja eine Vorlesung Software Engineering, auch die gibt es Jahrzehnte und die hat sich ja auch bis 20 22 als der das die LLMs populär waren, immer weiterentwickelt.",{"text":35727,"start":28088,"end":28179},"Da kamen ja auch neue Tools, neue Dinge hinzu und so weiter und dass da jetzt eben man nach wie vor auf aktuelle moderne Werkzeuge setzt und da gehören eben auch dann KI basierte Werkzeuge heutzutage dazu.",83,{"sentences":35730,"speaker":198,"num_words":34091,"start":28181,"end":28194},[35731],{"text":35732,"start":28181,"end":28194},"Noch eine noch eine letzte Frage?",{"sentences":35734,"speaker":174,"num_words":34916,"start":28194,"end":28204},[35735],{"text":35736,"start":28194,"end":28204},"Nein, nein, nein, nein.",{"sentences":35738,"speaker":198,"num_words":34152,"start":28207,"end":28237},[35739,35741,35742],{"text":35740,"start":28207,"end":28225},"Ich hab noch eine letzte Frage, ganz eigene.",{"text":28229,"start":28225,"end":28228},{"text":35743,"start":28231,"end":28237},"Ich hab ja",{"sentences":35745,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":28239,"end":28251},[35746],{"text":35747,"start":28239,"end":28251},"Glaub ich, bei dir studieren.",{"sentences":35749,"speaker":198,"num_words":34086,"start":28253,"end":28318},[35750,35751,35752],{"text":28256,"start":28253,"end":28254},{"text":15811,"start":28258,"end":28259},{"text":35753,"start":28261,"end":28318},"Als ich so überlegt hab, was ich alles studieren wollte, ne, und da hab ich mir auch son paar Probeveranstaltungen besucht für Informatik.",{"sentences":35755,"speaker":174,"num_words":244,"start":28321,"end":28348},[35756,35758,35760,35762],{"text":35757,"start":28321,"end":28329},"Wann wann war das?",{"text":35759,"start":28329,"end":28335},"Welches Jahrtausend?",{"text":35761,"start":28338,"end":28342},"Dieses tatsächlich.",{"text":35763,"start":28342,"end":28348},"Ah, okay.",{"sentences":35765,"speaker":198,"num_words":34532,"start":28348,"end":28493},[35766,35768,35770],{"text":35767,"start":28348,"end":28369},"Dieses Ja, ich wusste auch tatsächlich.",{"text":35769,"start":28371,"end":28448},"Und und was ich damals ehrlicherweise son bisschen abschreckend fand, als ich so in soner Probeninformatiklösung war, war so, mit mit welchen Sprachen da zum Beispiel einfach so gearbeitet wurde, ja.",{"text":35771,"start":28451,"end":28493},"Was sind denn für euch heute so die gängigsten Lehrsprachen, die ihr benutzt in den meisten Vorlesungen?",{"sentences":35773,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34057,"start":28496,"end":28516},[35774,35775,35776],{"text":4881,"start":28496,"end":28497},{"text":4881,"start":28500,"end":28501},{"text":35777,"start":28501,"end":28516},"Ja, wir starten mit Java.",{"sentences":35779,"speaker":198,"num_words":35287,"start":28519,"end":28551},[35780,35782],{"text":35781,"start":28519,"end":28546},"Das ist schon deutlich besser als das c, was mir damals angeboten wurde.",{"text":28553,"start":28546,"end":28551},{"sentences":35784,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":28551,"end":28561},[35785],{"text":35786,"start":28551,"end":28561},"Ah, okay, krass.",{"sentences":35788,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34889,"start":28563,"end":28780},[35789,35791,35793,35795,35797],{"text":35790,"start":28563,"end":28591},"Ja, wobei auch da noch mal Konzept versus Öl Ja.",{"text":35792,"start":28593,"end":28597},"Versus Sprache.",{"text":35794,"start":28601,"end":28646},"Es ist uns wichtig, dass wir Grundlagen des objektorientierten und des prozeduralen imperativen Programmierens vermitteln.",{"text":35796,"start":28649,"end":28761},"Dann ja c c plus plus und C-Sharp dot net Plattformen spielen natürlich auch eine Rolle, immer abhängig, wie Dozierende sind, welche Dozierenden da sind oder was da ist und natürlich jetzt gerade durch die KI Geschichte kommt man nicht an Python vorbei.",{"text":35798,"start":28764,"end":28780},"Python halte ich im Übrigen als 1.",{"sentences":35800,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34023,"start":28780,"end":28827},[35801,35803],{"text":35802,"start":28780,"end":28795},"Sprache, als Einstieg für nicht geeignet.",{"text":35804,"start":28798,"end":28827},"Das ist mir ein Bedürfnis, das noch mal los zu machen.",{"sentences":35806,"speaker":174,"num_words":34377,"start":28827,"end":29012},[35807,35809,35811,35813,35815],{"text":35808,"start":28827,"end":28844},"Aber ich muss sagen, als gute 2.",{"text":35810,"start":28844,"end":28850},"Sprache finde ich.",{"text":35812,"start":28853,"end":28913},"Also ich ich war sehr froh, mit Java anzufangen, weil's halt diese Konzepte von Objektorientierung und so was halt irgendwie sehr gut beigebracht hat.",{"text":35814,"start":28913,"end":28950},"Aber dann Python war sehr, sehr angenehm, weil sobald man da son bisschen im Lauf war.",{"text":35816,"start":28950,"end":29012},"Ich find, Python machst so Objektorientierung nicht so supergut, aber gut, ist ja ein anderes Thema, aber das fand ich da nicht so gut gelöst.",{"sentences":35818,"speaker":174,"num_words":1077,"start":29012,"end":29019},[35819],{"text":35820,"start":29012,"end":29019},"Ja, das",{"sentences":35822,"speaker":198,"num_words":34611,"start":29019,"end":29027},[35823],{"text":35824,"start":29019,"end":29027},"ist ja, das",{"sentences":35826,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34803,"start":29027,"end":29113},[35827,35829],{"text":35828,"start":29027,"end":29076},"ist es, wenn man wenn man programmieren kann, auch im fortgeschrittenen Alter, das mal sagen zu dürfen.",{"text":35830,"start":29076,"end":29113},"Ich hab ja noch mit mit Sprachen wie Modula 2, kennt ihr das überhaupt noch?",{"sentences":35832,"speaker":174,"num_words":34227,"start":29116,"end":29148},[35833,35835],{"text":35834,"start":29116,"end":29125},"Ihr jungen Biester.",{"text":35836,"start":29129,"end":29148},"Nee, das ist Sonny gehört tatsächlich.",{"sentences":35838,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35847,"start":29150,"end":29387},[35839,35841,35843,35845],{"text":35840,"start":29150,"end":29186},"Ah ja, das war tatsächlich neunzehnhundertneunzig herum eine populäre Sprache in der Ausbildung.",{"text":35842,"start":29189,"end":29324},"Ja, und ja, wenn man wenn man dann programmieren kann und und verschiedene Sprachen hat, kommen und gehen sehen in der Vergangenheit, dann kommt man gerade da mit Python auch dieser Vielzahl an Bibliotheken einfach, ist ja einfach eigentlich alles da im Bereich KI, maschinelles Lernen, Datenpipelines aufbauen und so weiter.",{"text":35844,"start":29326,"end":29381},"Ist ja nicht schlecht die Sprache, aber ich halt sie nicht als als Lehrsprache für Programmier, Anfängerinnen, Anfänger Ja.",{"text":35846,"start":29383,"end":29387},"Für geeignet.",85,{"sentences":35849,"speaker":198,"num_words":35847,"start":29389,"end":29601},[35850,35852,35854,35855,35857],{"text":35851,"start":29389,"end":29443},"Also ich bin voll bei dir zu sagen, die Sprache ist nicht das Allerentscheidende so, ja, sondern man muss halt die Konzepte damit lernen.",{"text":35853,"start":29443,"end":29500},"Aber ich glaube schon, dass es halt gute Lehrsprachen gibt, die sich dadurch auszeichnen, dass sie einem viel ermöglichen, aber nicht viel abverlangen.",{"text":4881,"start":29504,"end":29505},{"text":35856,"start":29505,"end":29574},"Man kann damit objektorientiert machen, man kann damit vielleicht auch funktional machen, man kann Multitreading machen, muss es aber vielleicht nicht, man kann parallel so, ja.",{"text":35858,"start":29574,"end":29601},"Und da gibt's halt, glaub ich, einfach bessere oder schlechtere Kandidaten.",{"sentences":35860,"speaker":198,"num_words":34086,"start":29601,"end":29663},[35861,35863],{"text":35862,"start":29601,"end":29637},"Und ja, ich bin auch dabei, Python ist wahrscheinlich nicht ideale Einstiegssprache, so, ja.",{"text":35864,"start":29637,"end":29663},"Aber c war's bei ihm ja damals auf gar keinen Fall.",{"sentences":35866,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":29663,"end":29672},[35867],{"text":35868,"start":29663,"end":29672},"Das war auch",{"sentences":35870,"speaker":198,"num_words":34171,"start":29672,"end":29729},[35871,35873,35874],{"text":35872,"start":29672,"end":29685},"nicht, das muss ich auch sagen.",{"text":902,"start":29687,"end":29688},{"text":35875,"start":29691,"end":29729},"Okay, gut, ey, hab mich nur ganz, ganz persönliches interessiert, was da grade grade passiert.",{"sentences":35877,"speaker":174,"num_words":34143,"start":29732,"end":29799},[35878,35880,35882,35884],{"text":35879,"start":29732,"end":29750},"Und jetzt deine letzte Abschlussfrage, oder Jan?",{"text":35881,"start":29750,"end":29761},"Willst Du sie stellen?",{"text":35883,"start":29764,"end":29791},"Ja, und zwar also eine Frage, die wir gerne am Ende stellen.",{"text":35885,"start":29791,"end":29799},"Und zwar Die",{"sentences":35887,"speaker":198,"num_words":34091,"start":29799,"end":29812},[35888],{"text":35889,"start":29799,"end":29812},"macht auch nur am Ende Sinn.",{"sentences":35891,"speaker":1077,"num_words":1077,"start":29812,"end":29820},[35892],{"text":35893,"start":29812,"end":29820},"Die gibt",{"sentences":35895,"speaker":174,"num_words":35100,"start":29820,"end":29953},[35896,35898,35900],{"text":35897,"start":29820,"end":29838},"ja auch nur am Ende Sinn so tatsächlich.",{"text":35899,"start":29838,"end":29856},"Also sie ist perfekt platziert am Ende.",{"text":35901,"start":29856,"end":29953},"Und zwar gibt es eine Frage, die Du dir gewünscht hättest, die wir dir stellen, die wir dich gefragt haben oder irgendetwas, dass Du einfach loswerden möchtest, dass Du hier noch mal rausschreien möchtest in die große Welt",{"sentences":35903,"speaker":198,"num_words":33977,"start":29956,"end":29976},[35904,35906],{"text":35905,"start":29956,"end":29971},"Außer dass Python keine gute 1.",{"text":35907,"start":29971,"end":29976},"Sprache Genau,",{"sentences":35909,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34240,"start":29976,"end":30090},[35910,35912,35914,35916,35918],{"text":35911,"start":29976,"end":29982},"ja, genau.",{"text":35913,"start":29982,"end":30002},"Das war doch eigentlich schon 'n ganz gutes Schluss.",{"text":35915,"start":30002,"end":30018},"Also ich hatte son paar Punkte.",{"text":35917,"start":30022,"end":30045},"Im Podcast soll's ja nicht alles vorgegeben sein.",{"text":35919,"start":30045,"end":30090},"Es soll ja eine lockere Unterhaltung sein, aber son paar Punkte, die mir schon wichtig waren zu dem Thema.",{"sentences":35921,"speaker":1077,"num_words":35403,"start":30092,"end":30149},[35922,35924],{"text":35923,"start":30092,"end":30110},"Ich denke, die haben wir eigentlich alle behandelt.",{"text":35925,"start":30113,"end":30149},"Von dem her bin ich an der Stelle, wie man so schön sagt, vollumfänglich zufrieden.",{"sentences":35927,"speaker":174,"num_words":33977,"start":30153,"end":30172},[35928,35930],{"text":35929,"start":30153,"end":30160},"Geil, sehr schön.",{"text":35931,"start":30160,"end":30172},"Das ist doch sehr cool.",{"sentences":35933,"speaker":198,"num_words":34961,"start":30175,"end":30218},[35934],{"text":35935,"start":30175,"end":30218},"Wir auch und das wär auch fast 'n gutes Schlusswort, aber was haben wir am Ende immer noch, Dave?",{"sentences":35937,"speaker":174,"num_words":34030,"start":30218,"end":30255},[35938,35940,35941,35942],{"text":35939,"start":30218,"end":30230},"Das Schweinchen des Tages.",{"text":15811,"start":30233,"end":30234},{"text":30238,"start":30234,"end":30236},{"text":35943,"start":30240,"end":30255},"Ah, Piks of the day.",{"sentences":35945,"speaker":1077,"num_words":1077,"start":30259,"end":30263},[35946],{"text":35947,"start":30259,"end":30263},"Machen wir",{"sentences":35949,"speaker":198,"num_words":34677,"start":30263,"end":30302},[35950,35952],{"text":35951,"start":30263,"end":30281},"weiter mit dem nächsten Thema, mit deiner genialenüberleitung.",{"text":35953,"start":30285,"end":30302},"Was ist dein Pick of the day?",{"sentences":35955,"speaker":174,"num_words":34599,"start":30302,"end":30507},[35956,35958,35960,35962,35963],{"text":35957,"start":30302,"end":30352},"Mein Pick of the day ist vielleicht passend zu heute, weil's ja nicht nur Lehre ging, sondern auch AI.",{"text":35959,"start":30355,"end":30420},"Und zwar, es ist also es ist kein großes Geheimnis und ist auch nicht so super Spezielles, aber tatsächlich ist mein die Codex App.",{"text":35961,"start":30423,"end":30433},"Codex kennt ihr beide?",{"text":902,"start":30437,"end":30438},{"text":35964,"start":30441,"end":30507},"Codex ist nämlich quasi die Anwendung von der als dann Oberfläche, dir zu helfen, mit deinem Agenten zu reden und Dinge auch durchaus so parallelisieren.",{"sentences":35966,"speaker":174,"num_words":35977,"start":30511,"end":30835},[35967,35969,35971,35973,35975],{"text":35968,"start":30511,"end":30619},"Und dafür mag ich die wirklich sehr, sehr gerne, weil der deine ganzen Verzeichnisse direkt anzeigt und dann kannst Du da 'n neuen Chat aufmachen und dann sagen, hey, hier, arbeite mal jetzt daran und dann in 'nem anderen Ordner, arbeite jetzt an dem.",{"text":35970,"start":30622,"end":30659},"Und das ist irgendwie, ich muss sagen, das hat jetzt so in letzter Zeit bei mir richtig reingeknallt.",{"text":35972,"start":30663,"end":30700},"Vor allem also jetzt auch mit den neuen Modellen, Kodex Modellen 5 und 6, megagut.",{"text":35974,"start":30703,"end":30822},"Und weil wir ja auch Backend und Frontend getrennt haben, das parallel zu entwickeln, das war dadurch superangenehm und smooth einfach, weil ich dann halt beides gleichzeitig mal konnte und dann halt quasi, hey, okay, nimmt das Frontend, das richtig auf, was das Backend macht und so.",{"text":35976,"start":30822,"end":30835},"Und das fand ich sehr geil.",130,{"sentences":35979,"speaker":174,"num_words":34627,"start":30835,"end":30942},[35980,35982],{"text":35981,"start":30835,"end":30894},"Und mein persönliches Highlight und das ist das Wichtigste, man kann ja unten auch einstellen, wie stark der Thinking Prozess sein soll.",{"text":35983,"start":30896,"end":30942},"Das ist son kleiner Slider, der so cool leuchtet und das Das ist wirklich, das ist coolste.",{"sentences":35985,"speaker":198,"num_words":34091,"start":30946,"end":30960},[35986],{"text":35987,"start":30946,"end":30960},"Ich glaube, der sieht, na, wenn",{"sentences":35989,"speaker":174,"num_words":34202,"start":30960,"end":30989},[35990,35992],{"text":35991,"start":30960,"end":30969},"der wirklich schön aussieht.",{"text":35993,"start":30969,"end":30989},"Das muss man sagen, es sieht wirklich schön aus.",{"sentences":35995,"speaker":198,"num_words":35609,"start":30989,"end":31099},[35996,35998,35999,36001],{"text":35997,"start":30989,"end":31018},"Ich benutze die Kodex App nicht, deswegen muss ich doof nachfragen.",{"text":902,"start":31021,"end":31022},{"text":36000,"start":31022,"end":31052},"Weil Du gesagt hast, Du kannst da mehrere Sachen dann quasi auch parallel machen.",{"text":36002,"start":31052,"end":31099},"Das heißt, unterstützt dir auch so und so was alles, im selben Repo quasi parallel unterschiedliche Ja.",{"sentences":36004,"speaker":174,"num_words":36013,"start":31099,"end":31235},[36005,36007,36008,36009,36011],{"text":36006,"start":31099,"end":31135},"Das haben wir nicht eingerichtet so, also bei uns in unserem Projekt Projekt unterstützt.",{"text":34788,"start":31135,"end":31141},{"text":729,"start":31141,"end":31143},{"text":36010,"start":31145,"end":31164},"Das ist noch nicht, aber genau das kann das.",{"text":36012,"start":31164,"end":31235},"Und was ich halt aber auch gemacht habe, ist zum Beispiel, zum einen lohnt sich das halt Backend- und Frontendtrennung, weil wir das in 2 unterschiedlichen Projekten haben, dadurch sowieso.",56,{"sentences":36015,"speaker":174,"num_words":34865,"start":31235,"end":31440},[36016,36018,36020,36022,36024],{"text":36017,"start":31235,"end":31313},"Aber gleichzeitig kannst Du auch sagen, hey, das mach ich jetzt grade lokal und Du lässt aber auch 'n Cloud Agent laufen, der das dann halt parallel noch mal 'n anderen Task machst.",{"text":36019,"start":31316,"end":31360},"Und ich muss sagen, es war es war schon krass, was das fürn Productivity Boost war am Ende.",{"text":36021,"start":31360,"end":31412},"Natürlich dann ist staut sich das auch so, okay, ist alles fertig und dann dann drüber schauen, ist noch mal eine andere Geschichte.",{"text":36023,"start":31415,"end":31430},"Aber es ist ist wirklich cool.",{"text":36025,"start":31430,"end":31440},"Es ist cool gemacht.",{"sentences":36027,"speaker":174,"num_words":34023,"start":31443,"end":31488},[36028,36029,36031,36032],{"text":947,"start":31443,"end":31444},{"text":36030,"start":31444,"end":31465},"Du bist irgendwie nicht so überzeugt beim heute.",{"text":31471,"start":31465,"end":31469},{"text":36033,"start":31469,"end":31488},"Weil der so so Standard ist, richtig?",{"sentences":36035,"speaker":198,"num_words":36038,"start":31488,"end":31569},[36036],{"text":36037,"start":31488,"end":31569},"Nee, also ich nutz die Kodex App nicht, deswegen weiß ich nicht, was da so in letzter Zeit passiert ist, aber gefühlt wär das ja so letztes Jahr son Pick of the day gewesen.",34,{"sentences":36040,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":31571,"end":31582},[36041,36043],{"text":36042,"start":31571,"end":31577},"Ja, ich weiß.",{"text":36044,"start":31577,"end":31582},"Also schon",{"sentences":36046,"speaker":198,"num_words":33977,"start":31585,"end":31603},[36047],{"text":36048,"start":31585,"end":31603},"Aber vielleicht einfach bisschen spät zu der Party.",{"sentences":36050,"speaker":174,"num_words":35316,"start":31603,"end":31676},[36051],{"text":36052,"start":31603,"end":31676},"Ja, deswegen, ich hätte auch 'n anderen Big of the day, aber auch das ist so 5 Jahre alt, aber es ist halt so, weil's für mich Aktualität hat irgendwie.",{"sentences":36054,"speaker":198,"num_words":34030,"start":31676,"end":31699},[36055],{"text":36056,"start":31676,"end":31699},"Ja, wenn Du damit grade zufrieden bist, ist ja wohl okay.",{"sentences":36058,"speaker":174,"num_words":34961,"start":31699,"end":31745},[36059],{"text":36060,"start":31699,"end":31745},"Ich hab sie ja ganz Zeit nicht genutzt und jetzt nutzt die Kodex App und jetzt ist eben Ja,",{"sentences":36062,"speaker":198,"num_words":34835,"start":31745,"end":31816},[36063,36065,36067],{"text":36064,"start":31745,"end":31770},"schön, da reden wir auch noch mal separat drüber.",{"text":36066,"start":31770,"end":31810},"Aber mein Pick ist gleich noch älter, aber ich wollte erst Olaf fragen, ob er was dabeihat.",{"text":1402,"start":31815,"end":31816},{"sentences":36069,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34459,"start":31819,"end":31861},[36070,36072],{"text":36071,"start":31819,"end":31829},"fass vielleicht noch mal zusammen.",{"text":36073,"start":31832,"end":31861},"Grade wegen der KI lohnt es sich noch mal mehr, Informatik zu studieren.",{"sentences":36075,"speaker":198,"num_words":36080,"start":31863,"end":31918},[36076,36078],{"text":36077,"start":31863,"end":31878},"Da ist auch nichts hinzuzufügen, ja.",{"text":36079,"start":31881,"end":31918},"Mein Pick of the day ist, kommt aus der, eigentlich so aus den Neunzigern vielleicht.",21,{"sentences":36082,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":31922,"end":31923},[36083],{"text":31925,"start":31922,"end":31923},{"sentences":36085,"speaker":198,"num_words":34091,"start":31927,"end":31940},[36086],{"text":36087,"start":31927,"end":31940},"Aber hat damit zu tun, dass",{"sentences":36089,"speaker":174,"num_words":34202,"start":31942,"end":31984},[36090,36092],{"text":36091,"start":31942,"end":31978},"Ach so, und warte, und kritisiert nicht meinen gestorben ist, vorbei.",{"text":36093,"start":31981,"end":31984},"Sorry, ich",{"sentences":36095,"speaker":198,"num_words":36080,"start":31984,"end":32048},[36096,36098,36100,36102],{"text":36097,"start":31984,"end":32009},"bin da drüber gestolpert, als Sam Neil gestorben ist.",{"text":36099,"start":32009,"end":32020},"Das wollt ich sagen.",{"text":36101,"start":32020,"end":32027},"Wow, okay.",{"text":36103,"start":32027,"end":32048},"So, Sam Neil, Schauspieler, Jurassic Park.",{"sentences":36105,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":32051,"end":32064},[36106],{"text":36107,"start":32051,"end":32064},"Jo, hab ich letztens mitbekommen.",{"sentences":36109,"speaker":198,"num_words":36120,"start":32067,"end":32198},[36110,36112,36114,36116,36118],{"text":36111,"start":32067,"end":32098},"Ja, und auch hier Jagd auf roter Oktober und so was alles.",{"text":36113,"start":32100,"end":32105},"Aber Jurassic Park.",{"text":36115,"start":32107,"end":32150},"Und wie immer, wenn so berühmte Schauspieler sterben, gibt's hier irgendwie Berichte darüber und hier und bla bla.",{"text":36117,"start":32150,"end":32187},"Und da ist ein Blogartikel zu mir reingespült worden, den ich jetzt empfehlen möchte.",{"text":36119,"start":32187,"end":32198},"Ich verlinken das in",51,{"sentences":36122,"speaker":174,"num_words":34057,"start":32198,"end":32216},[36123,36125],{"text":36124,"start":32198,"end":32204},"den Shownotes.",{"text":36126,"start":32207,"end":32216},"Der ist aus den Neunzigern?",{"sentences":36128,"speaker":198,"num_words":34030,"start":32220,"end":32245},[36129],{"text":36130,"start":32220,"end":32245},"Nein, der Blogartikel nicht, aber Jurassic Park ist aus den Neunzigern.",{"sentences":36132,"speaker":174,"num_words":1077,"start":32249,"end":32253},[36133],{"text":35763,"start":32249,"end":32253},{"sentences":36135,"speaker":198,"num_words":34436,"start":32253,"end":32315},[36136],{"text":36137,"start":32253,"end":32315},"Der Blogartikel arbeitet quasi Jurassic Park ab und zwar jede Szene, in der Computervorkommen und nimmt sich quasi jeden dieser Computer vor und sagt",{"sentences":36139,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":32315,"end":32323},[36140],{"text":36141,"start":32315,"end":32323},"so, hey, was",{"sentences":36143,"speaker":198,"num_words":34452,"start":32323,"end":32732},[36144,36146,36148,36150,36152],{"text":36145,"start":32323,"end":32507},"war das eigentlich für eine Kiste und was läuft da grade drauf und in jedem Detail, also jedes Stück Hardware, was Du in diesem Film siehst, ist so quasi beschrieben, was natürlich auf der einen Seite heute son bisschen lächerlich wirkt mit, oh, der hatte irgendwie 2 Megabyte ran diese Kiste und die war ultrateuer und die haben sie extra von irgendwie Xerox gemietet für diese Szene Jurassic Park und bla bla bla.",{"text":36147,"start":32507,"end":32602},"Aber das ist gar nicht das so, sondern er spricht halt auch so in dem Blogartikel darüber so, was ist das fürn UI, ne, wieso war das damals so State of the Art, was hat man sich dabei gedacht?",{"text":36149,"start":32602,"end":32639},"Und das fand ich einfach eine sehr coole Art irgendwie Kulturgut aufzuarbeiten vielleicht, ja.",{"text":36151,"start":32639,"end":32725},"Und wer son bisschen sich für so was interessiert oder einfach 'n Jurassic Park Fan ist oder einfach noch mal ans Daniele denken möchte, keine Ahnung, kannst dir diesen Blogartikel gerne mal angucken.",{"text":36153,"start":32725,"end":32732},"Wir verlinken den.",{"sentences":36155,"speaker":198,"num_words":34143,"start":32732,"end":32799},[36156,36158,36160,36161],{"text":36157,"start":32732,"end":32746},"Es macht Spaß zu lesen.",{"text":36159,"start":32746,"end":32785},"Er ist 'n bisschen lang, weil in Jurassic Park viele Computer vorkommen, wer hätte das gedacht.",{"text":902,"start":32785,"end":32788},{"text":36162,"start":32792,"end":32799},"Aber es macht Spaß.",{"sentences":36164,"speaker":174,"num_words":35474,"start":32799,"end":32985},[36165,36167,36169,36171,36173],{"text":36166,"start":32799,"end":32833},"Aber es ist schon interessant, auch sone Reise durch die Zeit dann wirklich.",{"text":36168,"start":32833,"end":32858},"So ist irgendwie so, was war damals eigentlich so das Ding?",{"text":36170,"start":32858,"end":32870},"Find ich auch wahnsinnig interessant.",{"text":36172,"start":32872,"end":32960},"Hier irgendwann bei meinen Eltern hab ich vor Jahren auch noch damals irgendwie son alten Mediamarkt hier so sone Zeitungsbroschüre gesehen, wo son 64 Megabyte USB Stick für 200 Euro oder so beworben wurde.",{"text":36174,"start":32960,"end":32985},"Und dann dacht so, alter, ist das krass.",{"sentences":36176,"speaker":174,"num_words":34436,"start":32985,"end":33050},[36177],{"text":36178,"start":32985,"end":33050},"Und das ist, wenn man das aus heutiger Objektive betrachtet, immer dann sehr interessant, wie es dann vor 8 Jahren Weil Du grade, weil",{"sentences":36180,"speaker":198,"num_words":33977,"start":33050,"end":33070},[36181],{"text":36182,"start":33050,"end":33070},"Du 200 Euro gesagt hast, also inzwischen gehen's",{"sentences":36184,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34000,"start":33070,"end":33087},[36185,36187],{"text":36186,"start":33070,"end":33082},"ja wiederholt, die Speicherpreise.",{"text":4881,"start":33086,"end":33087},{"sentences":36189,"speaker":198,"num_words":35847,"start":33089,"end":33313},[36190,36192,36194,36196],{"text":36191,"start":33089,"end":33145},"Hier ist Steven Spielberg und so, ist ja auch dafür bekannt, dass sie quasi nur realistische Effekte haben wollten und alles, ja cool.",{"text":36193,"start":33145,"end":33165},"Und alle diese Computer waren halt auch echt, so.",{"text":36195,"start":33165,"end":33221},"Das heißt, nicht so wie bei manchen anderen Science Fiction Filmen irgendwie viel Sperrholz und Plastik und LEDs irgendwie zusammengetackert.",{"text":36197,"start":33225,"end":33313},"Und am Ende macht er in dem Blogartikel auch sone Rechnung auf, was all diese Kisten quasi damals gekostet haben zusammen und was sie quasi heute äquivalent kosten würden, Inflationsbereich, ist auch abgefahren.",{"sentences":36199,"speaker":1077,"num_words":34916,"start":33313,"end":33326},[36200],{"text":36201,"start":33313,"end":33326},"Ja, saß da, saß",{"sentences":36203,"speaker":174,"num_words":34057,"start":33326,"end":33349},[36204],{"text":36205,"start":33326,"end":33349},"da, saß da, was da dem Betrag?",{"sentences":36207,"speaker":198,"num_words":34030,"start":33352,"end":33379},[36208],{"text":36209,"start":33352,"end":33379},"Ich weiß nicht, ob ich gerade sagen hab, aber was waren",{"sentences":36211,"speaker":174,"num_words":34000,"start":33382,"end":33399},[36212,36214],{"text":36213,"start":33382,"end":33389},"Sechsstellig, siebenstellig.",{"text":36215,"start":33389,"end":33399},"Sehr hoch, sechsstellig",{"sentences":36217,"speaker":198,"num_words":34227,"start":33399,"end":33422},[36218,36220],{"text":36219,"start":33399,"end":33416},"und heute sehr hoch siebenstellig, sag ich.",{"text":36221,"start":33416,"end":33422},"Ja, ja,",{"sentences":36223,"speaker":174,"num_words":34916,"start":33424,"end":33438},[36224,36226,36227],{"text":36225,"start":33424,"end":33429},"ja, krass.",{"text":33436,"start":33432,"end":33433},{"text":33439,"start":33433,"end":33438},{"sentences":36229,"speaker":198,"num_words":34961,"start":33441,"end":33492},[36230,36232,36234,36236,36237],{"text":36231,"start":33441,"end":33455},"Das war mein Beitrag für heute.",{"text":36233,"start":33457,"end":33460},"Sehr cool.",{"text":36235,"start":33460,"end":33470},"Also durch die Vergangenheit.",{"text":33476,"start":33473,"end":33474},{"text":36238,"start":33478,"end":33492},"Damit auf jeden Fall danke Olaf",{"sentences":36240,"speaker":174,"num_words":174,"start":33494,"end":33495},[36241],{"text":902,"start":33494,"end":33495},{"sentences":36243,"speaker":198,"num_words":35287,"start":33498,"end":33530},[36244],{"text":36245,"start":33498,"end":33530},"Für die Zeit, dass Du extra hergekommen bist, so ins Studio für das Gespräch.",{"sentences":36247,"speaker":1077,"num_words":33977,"start":33530,"end":33553},[36248],{"text":36249,"start":33530,"end":33553},"Bin gern gekommen, bedanke mich für die Einladung.",{"sentences":36251,"speaker":198,"num_words":34057,"start":33555,"end":33570},[36252],{"text":36253,"start":33555,"end":33570},"Das hat sich auf jeden Fall gelohnt.",{"sentences":36255,"speaker":174,"num_words":36080,"start":33570,"end":33618},[36256],{"text":36257,"start":33570,"end":33618},"Das es war auch richtig cool, mal wieder hier alle im Studio zu sein, dass irgendwie von anderen Ich mag das",{"sentences":36259,"speaker":198,"num_words":1077,"start":33618,"end":33623},[36260],{"text":36261,"start":33618,"end":33623},"Ich mag",{"sentences":36263,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":33623,"end":33630},[36264],{"text":36265,"start":33623,"end":33630},"das sehr gerne.",{"sentences":36267,"speaker":198,"num_words":33984,"start":33630,"end":33740},[36268,36270,36272,36274,36276],{"text":36269,"start":33630,"end":33667},"Die meisten Gäste schaffen das ja nicht zeitlich oder von der Distanz her vorbeizuschauen.",{"text":36271,"start":33671,"end":33688},"Von daher wissen wir das super zu schätzen.",{"text":36273,"start":33691,"end":33704},"Danke Dave, dass Du dabei warst.",{"text":36275,"start":33704,"end":33725},"Danke für alle, die zugehört, zugeschaut haben.",{"text":36277,"start":33725,"end":33740},"Wir hoffen, es hat euch geholfen.",{"sentences":36279,"speaker":198,"num_words":36286,"start":33740,"end":33941},[36280,36282,36284],{"text":36281,"start":33740,"end":33873},"Vielleicht die Entscheidung für den Informatikstudiengang zu treffen, vielleicht, wenn ihr schon in der Informatikseite noch mal son bisschen Noch Motivation noch mal raus rauszuholen oder wenn ihr wie Dave und ich schon bisschen länger drin setzt, also boah, ist ja alles 'n bisschen anders als es bei mir früher vielleicht war.",{"text":36283,"start":33873,"end":33893},"Kann man ja auch mal 'n bisschen wertschätzen.",{"text":36285,"start":33896,"end":33941},"Wunderbar und damit bleibt uns nichts anderes sagen als bis bald und wir hören, sehen, sprechen uns nächste Woche.",79,{"sentences":36288,"speaker":174,"num_words":34611,"start":33941,"end":33950},[36289,36291],{"text":36290,"start":33941,"end":33947},"Nächste 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Der Dave aka David Krusitzky. Moin, was geht? Schön, dass Du da bist, Dave. 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